Over what scale is curvature measurable

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the measurement of spatial curvature in the universe, particularly focusing on the conditions under which curvature can be detected using hypothetical space probes that communicate instantaneously. The scope includes theoretical considerations of curvature, measurement techniques, and implications for cosmology.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a scenario involving three space probes that can measure angles between each other to determine curvature, questioning the distance required for noticeable deviation from 180 degrees.
  • Another participant argues that the ability to measure curvature depends on the actual curvature of space and the quality of measuring instruments, indicating that the question is hypothetical.
  • A different participant challenges the premise of superluminal communication, suggesting that the nature of space-time separation affects curvature measurements.
  • Some participants assert that while we have detailed knowledge of curvature within our solar system, the overall curvature of the universe is close to zero, which complicates the measurement question.
  • One participant emphasizes that the original question assumes some non-zero global spatial curvature exists, noting that if the universe is flat, measurement would be impossible regardless of instrument accuracy.
  • Another participant acknowledges potential misinterpretations in earlier posts regarding the constraints of current measurements on global curvature.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of spatial curvature and its measurability, with no consensus reached on the assumptions underlying the original question or the implications of current measurements.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions made about the universe's curvature, the definitions of curvature being discussed, and the unresolved nature of how measurement accuracy relates to the curvature's potential values.

newjerseyrunner
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Imagine I have three space probes that I send out radially. They have a superluminal way to determine each other's relative position to each other instantaneously. If each one measures the relative position of the other two and comes up with an angle for them, how far away would they have to be from each other before the sum of those angles became noticeably not 180 degrees?
 
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If you're asking hypothetically - then it depends on how curved the space is, and how good are your measuring instruments.

If you're asking about our actual universe - then it's impossible to answer, since we don't know how, if at all, curved it is.
 
newjerseyrunner said:
They have a superluminal way to determine each other's relative position to each other instantaneously.

No they don't.

newjerseyrunner said:
If each one measures the relative position of the other two and comes up with an angle for them, how far away would they have to be from each other before the sum of those angles became noticeably not 180 degrees?

Since you are referring to spatial curvature, this depends on how you separate time from space and therefore on exactly how your super magical fictitious superluminal communication works. Space can be curved in a flat space-time and vice versa.
 
Bandersnatch said:
If you're asking about our actual universe - then it's impossible to answer, since we don't know how, if at all, curved it is.

We do know quite accurately how curved it is. For example, we know in great detail about the curvature of spacetime within our own solar system. You may have had in mind the average spatial curvature of the entire universe; we know that very accurately too, and it happens to be close to zero.
 
@bcrowell: yes, I meant the spatial curvature of the universe as a whole. The post is in cosmology, so I assumed that's what was meant.
I know it's close to zero, that's the whole point. Consider what the OP is asking. He basically wants to know how accurate measuring equipment (i.e., how large a triangle) is required to detect spatial curvature of the universe. At least that's how I read it.

In this question there's an unspoken assumption that we know that the universe definitely has some non-zero global spatial curvature.
After all, if it has none, then it's impossible to measure it, no matter the accuracy of equipment.
And if it has some, but small enough to fall within the error bars of current measurements consistent with flat universe, then it is impossible to answer how accurate the equipment needs to be to detect it, since we don't know how close to zero the value lies.edit: now that I read my response in post #2 again, I see that I could be taken to mean that the global curvature is completely unconstrained by measurements. I admit it was sloppy.
 
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