Permutations and Transpositions

Click For Summary
The discussion centers on understanding why the determinant, denoted as Δ, cannot contain the term (xp - xq) more than once. It is clarified that Δ is defined as a product over pairs (i,j) where i < j, ensuring that each pair appears only once, thus preventing duplicates. The user also attempts to prove that σ(Δ) can include either (xp - xq) or (xq - xp), but not both, leading to a contradiction if both were present. Acknowledgment is given to the complexity of the proof, with a suggestion that the textbook could provide clearer explanations. Overall, the conversation emphasizes the importance of understanding the definitions and properties of permutations and determinants in this context.
Bashyboy
Messages
1,419
Reaction score
5

Homework Statement


Attached are some screen shots of portion of the textbook I'm currently working through:
Capture.PNG
Capture'.PNG


Homework Equations

The Attempt at a Solution



My first question, why exactly can't ##\Delta## contains ##x_p - x_q## only once (note, switched from ##i,j## to ##p,q##)? As you can see, the author didn't give many very details concerning this. Clearly ##\Delta## can also be written ##\Delta = \prod_{(i,j) \in S} (x_i - x_j)##, where ##S = \{(i,j) ~|~ 1 \le i < j \le n \}##. Since sets don't contain duplicates of elements, ##S## won't contain any pair ##(p,q)## twice, implying that ##x_p - x_q## won't appear in ##\Delta## more than once. Would this be the reason, that ##S## cannot contain duplicates? Seems to be a rather unremarkable reason, but if it gets job done...

Next, I am trying to prove that ##\sigma(\Delta)## contains either ##x_p - x_q## or ##x_q - x_p##, but not both. For simplicity, let ##g = \sigma^{-1}##. Suppose that ##\sigma (\Delta)## contains both factors. Then ##\sigma (\Delta) = (x_p - x_q)(x_q - x_p) \prod_{(i,j) \in S \setminus \{(p,q),(q,p)\}}##, and therefore

$$g (\sigma(\Delta)) = (x_{g(p))} - x_{g(q)})(x_{g(q)} - x_{g(p)}) \prod (x_{g(i)} - x_{g(j)})$$

$$\Delta = - (x_{g(p))} - x_{g(q)}) (x_{g(p))} - x_{g(q)}) \prod (x_{g(i)} - x_{g(j)})$$,

showing that ##\Delta## contains ##(x_{g(p))} - x_{g(q)})## twice, contradicting what we showed above.

I know: it isn't great. For one thing, the RHS could be ##- \Delta##, so that is one flaw in the argument. I hope someone can help. For all DF's verbosity, it doesn't really clearly spell out the details very well, which is why I don't like DF very much, although it has massive number of problems.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Bashyboy said:
why exactly can't Δ contains ##x_p - x_q## only once
I presume you mean, why not more than once.
It's because of the definition of the product. It is taken over the pairs (i,j) for which i<j. Therefore for a given pair of indices with i<j, the pair (i,j) occurs exactly once and the pair(j,i) does not occur at all.

For the same result after permuting the indices, it seems reasonably obvious to me, so I would be happy with the text as it stands. But if you feel it needs to be proved, your proof looks ok.
 
Question: A clock's minute hand has length 4 and its hour hand has length 3. What is the distance between the tips at the moment when it is increasing most rapidly?(Putnam Exam Question) Answer: Making assumption that both the hands moves at constant angular velocities, the answer is ## \sqrt{7} .## But don't you think this assumption is somewhat doubtful and wrong?

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 31 ·
2
Replies
31
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 52 ·
2
Replies
52
Views
13K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K