Admissions PhD Application in Physics: Age, Immigration, 2 PhDs

[Fernando Rios]

I will start an M.S. in Physics this fall at SJSU. If I apply to a PhD program in Physics once I am done with the M.S., will they consider the fact that I already have a PhD in Nanoscience and Nanotechnology, my age (38 years old now) and my immigration status (international student) for admission purposes?

 

[Vanadium 50]

As pointed out in previous threads of yours, it is impossible to predict what an unknown committee at an undetermined school will do.

As pointed out in previous threads of yours, many universities do not offer second PhDs. Also, as pointed out in previous threads of yours, a history that looks like one of a perpetual student is unlikely to be viewed positively.

Also as pointed out in previous threads of yours, most universities consider geographic balance and even more conside English proficiency. There is a near-infinite source of students from China and a lesser degree India and this is considered in the process.

 

[berkeman]

Thread closed temporarily for Moderation...

 

[berkeman]

After reviewing the OP's previous threads asking similar questions, this thread is different enough (asking about PhD applications) that we'll allow it as a separate thread for now. Thanks for your patience.

 

[CrysPhys]

@Fernando Rios . In one of your other threads, I asked you key questions, which I don't recall you ever answered. What is your ultimate career goal? And why isn't your existing PhD sufficient? You really should face those questions now. Otherwise, in 6+ years, assuming you do complete a PhD in Physics, you'll be back with, "I have two PhD's, one in Nano and one in Physics. I now want to apply for a PhD program in X. What are my chances? How will my existing PhD's affect my application?"

 

[Fernando Rios]

@Fernando Rios . In one of your other threads, I asked you key questions, which I don't recall you ever answered. What is your ultimate career goal? And why isn't your existing PhD sufficient? You really should face those questions now. Otherwise, in 6+ years, assuming you do complete a PhD in Physics, you'll be back with, "I have two PhD's, one in Nano and one in Physics. I now want to apply for a PhD program in X. What are my chances? How will my existing PhD's affect my application?"

My ultimate career goal is to teach Physics at a US community college. For this reason, or at least I think this, my PhD in Nanoscience and Nanotecnology from another country isn't enough.

 

[TeethWhitener]

My ultimate career goal is to teach Physics at a US community college. For this reason, or at least I think this, my PhD in Nanoscience and Nanotecnology from another country isn't enough.

It's probably more than enough. Most CC's that I know of require a Master's or higher in field X "or a closely related field." I think you could easily make the case that nanoscience is closely related to physics. Two PhD's may raise questions about whether you're overqualified and will jump ship as soon as something better comes along.

 

[jtbell]

Also, I think most community colleges offer only introductory physics courses. For example, the CC closest to me, in a small South Carolina city, offers only a three-semester calculus based sequence (Halliday/Resnick level) and a two-semester algebra/trig based sequence. There may also be electronics courses in other departments, as part of vocational degrees.

 

[Fernando Rios]

It's probably more than enough. Most CC's that I know of require a Master's or higher in field X "or a closely related field." I think you could easily make the case that nanoscience is closely related to physics. Two PhD's may raise questions about whether you're overqualified and will jump ship as soon as something better comes along.

But I don't know if my PhD is valid in the US. How can I know if it is enough?

 

[TeethWhitener]

But I don't know if my PhD is valid in the US. How can I know if it is enough?

That I can't answer offhand. You might start here:
https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ous/international/usnei/us/edlite-visitus-forrecog.html

 

[Fernando Rios]

That I can't answer offhand. You might start here:
https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ous/international/usnei/us/edlite-visitus-forrecog.html

Ok, but even if it is valid in the US, I think you should have a B.S. in Physics and an M.S. in a closely related field or an M.S. in Physics to teach at a community college in the US. And also, I would like to see if it is possible to get tenure track.

 

[gmax137]

How can I know if it is enough?

Ask the Human Resources department at the CC where you would like to teach.

 

[Frabjous]

Why community college and not high school?

 

[berkeman]

Why community college and not high school?

Have you been in a high school classroom recently? If it's a public high school in the US, the environment often is quite hostile (hostile and disrespectful students). In private high schools, it is much better, but only because the parents are paying a lot of extra money to have their kids in a better learning environment with mostly respectful kids.

 

[Frabjous]

Have you been in a high school classroom recently? If it's a public high school in the US, the environment often is quite hostile (hostile and disrespectful students). In private high schools, it is much better, but only because the parents are paying a lot of extra money to have their kids in a better learning environment with mostly respectful kids.

Are you speaking from experience?

 

[berkeman]

Are you speaking from experience?

Yes, but limited experience with the public high school part, admittedly.

We sent our two kids to private grammar/middle/high schools to try to give them a better chance to get their early education in a more stable environment. For various reasons, my son had to do his last 3 years of high school at a public high school, and at the teacher's request I sat in on my son's math class one day. I was incredulous that the students were so disrespectful of the teacher and the other students. They were ignoring the teacher and the lesson, texting on their phones, talking with each other, and generally not paying attention. I'm sure that the students in that class that really wanted to learn were frustrated by the situation.

Back in my day in high school (the 70's), if you acted like that you got sent to the principal's office and suspended/expelled if it kept up. Today it seems like that doesn't happen except in extreme cases. Lordy.

I have much more experience with the private school system (in my case it was Catholic schools, even though I myself am not religious). I have always been intimately involved in the schools, mostly due to my medical training and emergency response training (Safety Committees and such). The environment is totally different from the public schools, in my experience.

 

[Fernando Rios]

Ask the Human Resources department at the CC where you would like to teach.

I have seen job offers to teach Physics at community college and they clearly state that the minimum requirements are an M.S. in Physics or a B.S. in Physics with and M.S. in a related field, everything from an acreditted institution.

 

[TeethWhitener]

I have seen job offers to teach Physics at community college and they clearly state that the minimum requirements are an M.S. in Physics or a B.S. in Physics with and M.S. in a related field, everything from an acreditted institution.

So what’s the problem? You’ll have an MS in physics from an accredited university. FWIW, the few I looked through only said MS in physics or closely related field.

 

[Fernando Rios]

So what’s the problem? You’ll have an MS in physics from an accredited university. FWIW, the few I looked through only said MS in physics or closely related field.

The problem is that some people here told me in another thread that it is very competitive to get full-time positions at community college and that it is rarely given to someone with only and M.S. degree. For this reason, I was thinking about the PhD in Physics after the M.S. in Physics.

 

[gmax137]

But I don't know if my PhD is valid in the US. How can I know if it is enough?

How a PhD from a university outside the US is viewed might vary from CC to CC. Nobody here on PF can answer the question generically, or without exceptions.

 

[Vanadium 50]

As I think I mentioned upthread, the vast majority of CC positions around these parts (and other cities where I have lived) are part-time instructor positions, often filled by local high school teachers looking to make a little extra money.

These positions do not pay enough to live on, and hours are usually capped so that the college does not have to pay for benefits.

I know the nearest college has one actual faculty member in physics (well, two, as he's retiring and this is an overlap year with his replacement), the chair, whose job it is to schedule all the part-timers.

There are something like 1000 community colleges in the US. Assuming a 5% turnover, that's 50 positions per year. Assuming of course, no geographic restrictions. Fifth positions, fifty states. You can see how this is working out.

If this is the OP's goal, he should spend some serious time researching the positions out there, and who was hired, and what their backgrounds are. I have no first-hand knowledge, but suspect someone who has spent most of his adult life in school collecting degrees is not it. It is also unclear to me whether an EdD would be more or less valuable than a US-based PhD.

As an aside, just to compare 259 football players each year are drafted by the NFL.

 

[Fernando Rios]

As I think I mentioned upthread, the vast majority of CC positions around these parts (and other cities where I have lived) are part-time instructor positions, often filled by local high school teachers looking to make a little extra money.

These positions do not pay enough to live on, and hours are usually capped so that the college does not have to pay for benefits.

I know the nearest college has one actual faculty member in physics (well, two, as he's retiring and this is an overlap year with his replacement), the chair, whose job it is to schedule all the part-timers.

There are something like 1000 community colleges in the US. Assuming a 5% turnover, that's 50 positions per year. Assuming of course, no geographic restrictions. Fifth positions, fifty states. You can see how this is working out.

If this is the OP's goal, he should spend some serious time researching the positions out there, and who was hired, and what their backgrounds are. I have no first-hand knowledge, but suspect someone who has spent most of his adult life in school collecting degrees is not it. It is also unclear to me whether an EdD would be more or less valuable than a US-based PhD.

As an aside, just to compare 259 football players each year are drafted by the NFL.

To be honest it doesn't sound that motivating. I already talked to the graduate advisor at SJSU and he replied "We’ve had graduates of our masters program go on to teach physics at community colleges, so a PhD isn’t necessary. I think you’d be better off testing the waters with a masters degree - I suspect you will have opportunities." Hopefully, I can still achieve my career goal.

 

[CrysPhys]

My ultimate career goal is to teach Physics at a US community college. For this reason, or at least I think this, my PhD in Nanoscience and Nanotecnology from another country isn't enough.

So why did you complete a PhD in nano? Did you originally have a different career goal? Teaching physics at a US community college, I think, is usually not an express Plan A goal, but more of a Plan B fallback.

 

[Vanadium 50]

To be honest it doesn't sound that motivating.

I don't think that's my job.

The average faculty salary at the nearet CC is $11,500/year. If this isn't motivating enough, what number should I tell you instead?

 

[Fernando Rios]

So why did you complete a PhD in nano? Did you originally have a different career goal? Teaching physics at a US community college, I think, is usually not an express Plan A goal, but more of a Plan B fallback.

Since I was in my last years of the B.S. in Mechanical Engineering I wanted to study Physics, but I didn't know I could change fields and do an M.S. in Physics. Also, due to circunstances out of my control I ended up in the PhD in Nanosience and Nanotechnology.

 

[vela]

The problem is that some people here told me in another thread that it is very competitive to get full-time positions at community college and that it is rarely given to someone with only and M.S. degree. For this reason, I was thinking about the PhD in Physics after the M.S. in Physics.

I don't know how true that is. The community colleges I've taught at want someone who's interested in teaching. That's their primary concern, not whether you have a Ph.D. or a master's. I'd listen to your advisor.

So what’s the problem? You’ll have an MS in physics from an accredited university. FWIW, the few I looked through only said MS in physics or closely related field.

In California, if you have a BS in physics and a master's in a related field or if you have a master's or doctoral degree in physics, you're automatically assumed to be qualified to teach physics at a community college. If you don't meet either of those requirements, you need to work with HR at the school you're applying to to show that your field of study or experience qualifies you to teach physics.

 

[vela]

At the teacher's request I sat in on my son's math class one day. I was incredulous that the students were so disrespectful of the teacher and the other students.

The situation may be different in a physics class. Everyone's supposed to take math in high school, but the students taking physics in high school are usually the ones who intend to go to college. They tend to be better behaved and more studious.

The main reason I'd avoid teaching high school is that you have to deal with the adults, especially parents who think their little angel can do no wrong or didn't deserve the grade he or she earned.

 

[gmax137]

The situation may be different in a physics class.

Even so, public high school teachers do not always get to pick and choose what subjects they are assigned.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I don't know how true that is.

The OP started a number of threads with very similar subjects. The answer to one question may not exactly apply to another.

One question is "what credentials do I need to become an instructor at a CC?" (A common position, usually part-time) Another is "what credentials do I need to become a tenured or tenure-track full time professor at a CC?" (A substantially less common position)

 

[vela]

Even so, public high school teachers do not always get to pick and choose what subjects they are assigned.

Yet another reason to avoid teaching high school.

On the other hand, because a teacher with a physics background is relatively rare, I'd guess it's fairly unlikely to get stuck teaching a non-physics course.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The main reason I'd avoid teaching high school is that you have to deal with the adults, especially parents who think their little angel can do no wrong or didn't deserve the grade he or she earned.

Just tell them "It's not your son's/faughter's fault. It's probably genetics."

 

[jtbell]

.On the other hand, because a teacher with a physics background is relatively rare, I'd guess it's fairly unlikely to get stuck teaching a non-physics course.

How many high schools are big enough to offer enough physics courses to fill up a full-time teaching position?

 

[Vanadium 50]

How many high schools are big enough to offer enough physics courses to fill up a full-time teaching position?

Oooo! A Fermi problem!

I'd estimate around 5000.

 

[gmax137]

5000

5000 high schools? Or, a high school with 5000 students?

Google says there are 26,727 high schools in the US. EDIT: With the largest being Brooklyn Technical at 8076 students.

 

[Vanadium 50]

5000 high schools. The 25% largest.

 

[gwnorth]

I was thinking about the PhD in Physics after the M.S. in Physics.

You should be aware that if you do go that route, unless you do your PhD at the same university, you probably will not receive much if any transfer credit from your master's towards a PhD. As a result you'd probably be looking at a minimum of 8 more years of education (on top of the 10 you've already completed).

 

[Vanadium 50]

And SJSU does not have a PhD program, so this is guaranteed to happen.

 

[Fernando Rios]

You should be aware that if you do go that route, unless you do your PhD at the same university, you probably will not receive much if any transfer credit from your master's towards a PhD. As a result you'd probably be looking at a minimum of 8 more years of education (on top of the 10 you've already completed).

That's definitely a good point to consider. Does that mean the PhD will take 5 years? Will this amount of time make a difference I terms of being able to find a job?

 

[Vanadium 50]

The average PhD takes just over 7 years. If your MS takes 2, and you don't get any time savings from your MS (a situation that is highly highly likely) this sums to 9.

I believe that will make you almost 50 when you finish (and it can take even more time than the average). This will have a large financial impact, as well as raise "perpetual student" questions.

 

[CrysPhys]

Since I was in my last years of the B.S. in Mechanical Engineering I wanted to study Physics, but I didn't know I could change fields and do an M.S. in Physics. Also, due to circunstances out of my control I ended up in the PhD in Nanosience and Nanotechnology.

OK. But I still don't understand why your career goal is a tenured position at a community college? Rather than, say, a tenured position at a research university, or an R&D job in industry? Is there something explicitly drawing you to a community college, or do you just think it's an easy position to land? Again, you're talking about your primary Plan A goal, not a Plan B fallback.

 

[jtbell]

If you’re mainly interested in teaching, not research, you should consider four-year colleges that don’t grant PhD’s. I did my undergraduate at one, and taught at one for many years (now retired).

Most of them do expect some research, but it’s often mainly for giving students research experience so they can have a chance to get into graduate school. It’s not the primary criterion for tenure and promotion, as it is at research-oriented universities and the more prestigious small colleges.

Warning: many of these small colleges are under financial strain because of declining enrollment and a smaller expected pool of high-school graduates in the near future. Many colleges are avoiding re-filling tenure track positions when professors retire or leave, and trying to make do with adjuncts instead, or cutting back programs.

 

[Fernando Rios]

OK. But I still don't understand why your career goal is a tenured position at a community college? Rather than, say, a tenured position at a research university, or an R&D job in industry? Is there something explicitly drawing you to a community college, or do you just think it's an easy position to land? Again, you're talking about your primary Plan A goal, not a Plan B fallback.

The reason why I rather teach at a community college is because I want to focus on teaching rather than doing research, also I have heard it is easier to teach at a community college than at a university.

 

[Fernando Rios]

If you’re mainly interested in teaching, not research, you should consider four-year colleges that don’t grant PhD’s. I did my undergraduate at one, and taught at one for many years (now retired).

Most of them do expect some research, but it’s often mainly for giving students research experience so they can have a chance to get into graduate school. It’s not the primary criterion for tenure and promotion, as it is at research-oriented universities and the more prestigious small colleges.

Warning: many of these small colleges are under financial strain because of declining enrollment and a smaller expected pool of high-school graduates in the near future. Many colleges are avoiding re-filling tenure track positions when professors retire or leave, and trying to make do with adjuncts instead, or cutting back programs.

You mean like the one I will attend to do my M.S. in Physics (SJSU). They just offer Master's degrees, but I think in the Physics department professors still do research. I know someone who is teaching there with an M.S. in Physics, but just as a lecturer, not as a professor. Working there as a lecturer is still a full-time job? Do I need a PhD to get tenure at this type of institutions?

 

[mathwonk]

From my internet searches, I find that community college teachers teach about twice as many hours per week as do professors in research institutions. You will have less requirement to do research, but you may or may not find this community college teaching "easier". I myself hope some people with advanced degrees and love of teaching will choose high school teaching, having myself suffered through a high school class in physics that was basically a joke.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Your plan is to get a research degree so you can get a job where you don't have to do any research. OK...but are you going to write that on your Statement of Purpose?

 

[CrysPhys]

The reason why I rather teach at a community college is because I want to focus on teaching rather than doing research, also I have heard it is easier to teach at a community college than at a university.

<<Emphasis added.>> By "easier" do you mean easier to land a job in the first place, or easier to do the job?

 

[jtbell]

You mean like the one I will attend to do my M.S. in Physics (SJSU)

No, SJSU is a state school (according to Wikipedia, "the oldest public university on the West Coast and the founding campus of the California State University system."). The schools I'm thinking of are mostly small and privately-owned:

List of liberal arts colleges in the United States (Wikipedia)

They depend on student tution and fees, and on donations from alumni etc., for financial support.

Most of them originally had "College" in their names, and some of them still do, but many have "upgraded" themselves to "Universities" by adding specialized master's degree programs, often in health-related fields (e.g. nursing, pharmacy, occupational therapy), in order to bring in more tuition and fees. (However, my own alma mater is still a "College", even after adding a nursing program.)

Working there as a lecturer is still a full-time job? Do I need a PhD to get tenure at this type of institutions?

Yes, they have the normal tenure track: assistant, associate and full professors; and most require a PhD in order to get on the tenure track. Their accrediting agencies usually limit the percentage of class-hours for a bachelor's degree, that can be taught by faculty who do not have a "terminal degree" e.g. PhD.

When I started teaching at the college that I retired from, a professor's normal teaching schedule was four lecture courses per semester. In departments with labs (e.g. physics, chemistry, biology), labs didn't "count" as much as lectures, so my schedule was usually either three lectures and two labs, or two lectures and three labs. At some point this changed to seven lectures per year (three in one semester and four in the other), with some weird advanced mathematics for "counting" labs. This was for freeing up some faculty time to do research, which had basically become required for students.

Colleges with greater expectations for faculty to do research have teaching loads of three classes per semester, or even fewer if you can "buy" teaching hours with research grant money.

 

[Fernando Rios]

Your plan is to get a research degree so you can get a job where you don't have to do any research. OK...but are you going to write that on your Statement of Purpose?

Well that's what I want to do. What did other professors with PhD and with the same job say?

 

[Fernando Rios]

<<Emphasis added.>> By "easier" do you mean easier to land a job in the first place, or easier to do the job?

Easier to land a job and I would also think easier to do the job since you do not do the research, but I would like to hear other opinions.

 

[Fernando Rios]

From my internet searches, I find that community college teachers teach about twice as many hours per week as do professors in research institutions. You will have less requirement to do research, but you may or may not find this community college teaching "easier". I myself hope some people with advanced degrees and love of teaching will choose high school teaching, having myself suffered through a high school class in physics that was basically a joke.

So, you mean it may be as equal as hard to teach at community college than to teach at a university? Based on my experience nothing compares to research.