Photoelectric effect without photons

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the photoelectric effect and whether it can be adequately described without invoking the concept of photons. Participants explore the implications of this perspective on the understanding of light's quantized nature and the relationship between classical and quantum descriptions of photoemission phenomena.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants claim that the photoelectric effect can be described without photons, suggesting that it is a simpler case of a broader photoemission phenomenon.
  • Others argue that more advanced experiments, such as multiphoton photoemission and angle-resolved photoemission, do not have classical or semi-classical descriptions available.
  • A participant references a paper by JJ Thorn et al. to support their viewpoint on the limitations of classical descriptions in explaining the photoelectric effect.
  • There is mention of a semiclassical model for photoionization of electrons, which is noted as distinct from the photoelectric effect, as it involves different physical contexts (isolated atoms vs. solids).
  • One participant seeks further references or papers that discuss the photoelectric effect from a classical electromagnetic perspective.
  • Another participant suggests that the photoelectric effect can be viewed as a scattering of electrons in a classical periodic field.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of classical descriptions to the photoelectric effect and related phenomena. There is no consensus on whether the photoelectric effect can be fully explained without photons, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the distinction between photoionization and the photoelectric effect, highlighting the complexities involved in describing these phenomena. The discussion reflects varying interpretations of classical versus quantum mechanics in the context of light and electron interactions.

ShayanJ
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Recently I've seen claims here on PF(from some highly trusted members), that photoelectric effect can be described without using the photon concept and so can't be a demonstration of the quantized nature of light. This demonstration is only provided by more advanced experiments.
After that, I tried to find a paper that treats photoelectric effect using classical EM but I couldn't.
Can anyone point to such a paper?
Thanks
 
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Please read this JJ Thorn et al. paper and the references therein.

http://people.whitman.edu/~beckmk/QM/grangier/Thorn_ajp.pdf

You also have a misunderstanding here. The photoelectric effect experiment is the simplest and most naive demonstration of a more general photoemission phenomenon. The more advanced and more complex experiments such as multiphoton photoemission, angle-resolved photoemission, etc. all do NOT have a classical or semi classical description as of now.

Zz.
 
ZapperZ said:
You also have a misunderstanding here. The photoelectric effect experiment is the simplest and most naive demonstration of a more general photoemission phenomenon. The more advanced and more complex experiments such as multiphoton photoemission, angle-resolved photoemission, etc. all do NOT have a classical or semi classical description as of now.
So photoemission, in the general sense, has no classical or semi-classical description but one of its special cases, the "simplest and most naive" phenomenon considered by Einstein(which was what I meant when I said photoelectric effect because I don't know of a special name for that special case!), can be explained semi-classically i.e. with quantized matter and classical light. Right?
 
Yes, a semiclassical model - 'photoionization of a K shell electron': it's textbook material, see for example D. Blokhintsev's <Quantum Mechanics>, section 95, pp. 320 - 327 - Springer, 1964.
 
dextercioby said:
Yes, a semiclassical model - 'photoionization of a K shell electron': it's textbook material, see for example D. Blokhintsev's <Quantum Mechanics>, section 95, pp. 320 - 327 - Springer, 1964.

Although, to be accurate, "photoionization" is not the same as "photoemission/photoelectric" effect. The latter is done on solids and involves electronic bands, rather than electron orbitals of isolated atoms/molecules of the former.

Zz.
 
Yes, you can describe this as a scattering of electrons on the periodic classical field.
 

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