News Politics - playing the religious card

[Ivan Seeking]

Btw Ivan (post number 29) - "But the entire point of doing what's best for the country is to do what's best for the people. And executing people for human weakness, or human nature, is hardly in the interest of the people. And to do so certainly wouldn't be "right" by any standard that I could accept. But then I was raised Catholic, so maybe that's just my former religion speaking. "
Did you just use religion to take a higher moral position?

No, I was joking about my former Catholicism [my comment was posted with a biggrin after it]. But I was making the point that we still have to make moral interpretations of laws. It is impossible to separate personal beliefs from moral judgments. This is why religion cannot be completely removed from politics. As long as politicians have beliefs of any kind, beliefs will affect and shape policy.

When it comes to politics, the only religion I tend to apply is the religion of personal liberty. I will claim guilt on that count.

 

[MarcoD]

But I was making the point that we still have to make moral interpretations of laws. It is impossible to separate personal beliefs from moral judgments. This is why religion cannot be completely removed from politics. As long as politicians have beliefs of any kind, beliefs will affect and shape policy.

When it comes to politics, the only religion I tend to apply is the religion of personal liberty. I will claim guilt on that count.

In my view: two falsehoods. First, there is no moral interpretation of law, it is the reverse. The law is a collection of moral rules which are derived, in a democracy, from the common ethical ground (a set of assumptions on life) of the population, or in a theocracy, of religion, or in marxism, of humanist dictatorship.

Second, you don't need religion as a moral beacon. As a humanist, I would (could) claim the opposite and state that religion is immoral since it doesn't put the individual central. (Okay, maybe superfluous, I can also see where we agree if freedom is a religion.)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

In my view: two falsehoods. First, there is no moral interpretation of law, it is the reverse. The law is a collection of moral rules which are derived, in a democracy, from the common ethical ground (a set of assumptions on life) of the population, or in a theocracy, of religion, or in marxism, of humanist dictatorship.

Whether we are making laws or considering laws that already exist, moral interpretations come into play. A law is not a collection of moral rules. We use morality in part to determine what should and should not be law. But the laws themselves are legal statements.

Second, you don't need religion as a moral beacon. As a humanist, I would (could) claim the opposite and state that religion is immoral since it doesn't put the individual central. (Okay, maybe superfluous, I can also see where we agree if freedom is a religion.)

I didn't say we need it as a moral beacon, but as long as it is used as a moral beacon it will be applied to lawmaking. The point that I was trying to make is that we all judge according to an inner code - a personal sense of right and wrong -whether it be a religious code or something else.

 

[turbo]

I didn't say we need it as a moral beacon, but as long as it is used as a moral beacon it will be applied to lawmaking. The point that I was trying to make is that we all judge according to an inner code - a personal sense of right and wrong -whether it be a religious code or something else.

I sense danger when politicians feel the need to externalize their ethics. That leads to problems, IMO, not the least of which is trying to impose their beliefs' codes on others.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I sense danger when politicians feel the need to externalize their ethics. That leads to problems, IMO, not the least of which is trying to impose their beliefs' codes on others.

Same here but it isn't just religion. This can be applied to any personal code of morality or ethics.

I have found some of the views expressed by atheists here over the years just as invasive and offensive as the views of the fundamentalists. There seems to be a tendency to assume that if one isn't religious, one's views are somehow less personal or biased.

 

[Proton Soup]

President John Kennedy made the speech below.



Compared to Rick Perry's words and actions.



http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/11/opinion/la-oe-0611-rutten-20110611

Many people find what is going on with the religious right a disturbing direction for our country, to say the least.

to be fair, Kennedy didn't say those things coming from a majority position. he had to choose his words carefully to avoid just those sort of criticisms.

and since you decided to break the seal on it, let's look at that jewish hollywood thing a little more closely, shall we? here's another point of view, also from the LA Times, and not from a goy.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-stein19-2008dec19,0,4676183.column

How Jewish is Hollywood?
A poll finds more Americans disagree with the statement that 'Jews control Hollywood.' But here's one Jew who doesn't.
By Joel Stein

December 19, 2008
I have never been so upset by a poll in my life. Only 22% of Americans now believe "the movie and television industries are pretty much run by Jews," down from nearly 50% in 1964. The Anti-Defamation League, which released the poll results last month, sees in these numbers a victory against stereotyping. Actually, it just shows how dumb America has gotten. Jews totally run Hollywood.
...

 

[MarcoD]

Whether we are making laws or considering laws that already exist, moral interpretations come into play. A law is not a collection of moral rules. We use morality in part to determine what should and should not be law. But the laws themselves are legal statements.

Uh, how can a law not (where I mean most laws which deal with civil manners) not be an expression of an ethical assumption? I mean, I interpret a law like 'a murder will be punishable with an imprisonment of x-y years' as a rule which translates a number of ethical assumptions (all life is (equally) valuable/man may be punished for certain unethical conduct/imprisonment is a valid punishment) to concreteness.

I would claim that both the existence, and non-existence, of certain laws can be used to derive the ethics of a population, but not the reverse. (Though most law books kick-off with initial assumptions.) Uh, major very late edit: the reverse is, of course, derivable through the democratic process.

(I actually find that a bit hard in most religions, there are (often) a lot of rules but it is difficult to derive the ethical assumptions from those.)

I didn't say we need it as a moral beacon, but as long as it is used as a moral beacon it will be applied to lawmaking. The point that I was trying to make is that we all judge according to an inner code - a personal sense of right and wrong -whether it be a religious code or something else.

I agree.

 

[Evo]

My entire post number 39:
"My intent wasn't to derail the thread. As stated, I think religion is a weapon of choice by both sides in the political debate. The right tries to achieve a higher moral position with it and the left typically tries to belittle the right by challenging on the basis of lack of proof. It's a tiresome game that can't be "fixed" - IMO."

Btw Ivan (post number 29) - "But the entire point of doing what's best for the country is to do what's best for the people. And executing people for human weakness, or human nature, is hardly in the interest of the people. And to do so certainly wouldn't be "right" by any standard that I could accept. But then I was raised Catholic, so maybe that's just my former religion speaking. "
Did you just use religion to take a higher moral position?

No, I'm taking a logical position. When you have someone arguing for something that doesn't exist, as far as any evidence, it's easy to dismiss them outright, the onus is on them to prove it exists, there's nothing to even debate.

If someone tries to argue agaist something that has been observed (evolution), again, they lose. I'm not talking about discussing whose moral values are better, if we were, we'd be electing a Buddhist monk.

But I don't want this thread to be about religious beliefs, but about politicians trying to make religion a political platform. This is very different from a politician just being religious.

Some have said that they don't believe that it's wrong, a politician can do what ever they please. I don't think it's right, I believe in separation of church and state in that it's a two way street, the government doesn't tell you what to believe in your religion, and by the same coin, you don't use your religion to tell people what to do through government.

To all, do not discuss religious veiwpoints on various topics, that is not what this thread is about. As I said in my first paragraph "(let's not drag the thread off topic with discussions of these two topics, it's just to point out a trend).

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Some have said that they don't believe that it's wrong, a politician can do what ever they please. I don't think it's right, I believe in separation of church and state in that it's a two way street, the government doesn't tell you what to believe in your religion, and by the same coin, you don't use your religion to tell people what to do through government.

To all, do not discuss religious veiwpoints on various topics, that is not what this thread is about. As I said in my first paragraph "(let's not drag the thread off topic with discussions of these two topics, it's just to point out a trend).

You don't believe in freedom of speech? You would ban religious speech in political debates and public formats? I don't understand your point here. What specifically would you do or like to see done?

 

[turbo]

I have friends who are Unitarians. They are probably the most inclusive, generous, and understanding "religious" group out there. I'd be quite happy with a Unitarian candidate for high national office, since my experience with Unitarians over the years has been very positive.

Less-inclusive groups that have moral litmus tests can be problematic. I fear that the Republican primary candidates are going to drive each other so far to the right (pandering to the religious right) that the eventual nominee will find it hard to recover and appeal to Independents and Moderates for the general election. The US does not benefit from this polarization and extremism.

 

[Evo]

You don't believe in freedom of speech? You would ban religious speech in political debates and public formats? I don't understand your point here. What specifically would you do or like to see done?

I'd like to see religion separated from Government. Just as churches aren't supposed to get involved in politics, candidates also should not be representing the church to which they belong.

I think this is an excellent article and sums up how I feel about the subject.

Let me repeat here what I've said in churches: A mistake that over the history of our nation both theological liberals and conservatives have made in different moments is to equate one political candidate or one political party as being somehow closer to God. We need to resist this impulse for several reasons. First, I've never been aware of any public figure -- at least since Jesus -- who fully understood the wisdom of God. We all fall short despite even the best of intentions. When the late Jerry Falwell and others argued during the 2004 elections that you could not be a Christian unless you voted for their preferred candidates, they supplanted their own beliefs for the Gospel teachings. Second, and perhaps more important, is that when we align the church with one candidate or one political party, we risk becoming an agent of that cause instead of an agent of God. Scripture teaches us that we are called by God to be loving critics of the conventional wisdom, not agents of the state.

As a progressive minister in the United Church of Christ, I'm deeply concerned about poverty, the environment and war, to name a few of the pressing issues of our day. My hope is that more and more progressive Christians will become engaged in the public square. But we should not replicate our efforts out of what the religious right has done. No, groups like Focus on the Family and the like have too often claimed God as their own and reduced Scripture to a political platform. Progressive people of faith need to operate in ways that respect the great tradition of religious pluralism in the United States and intentionally seek -- even as we push hard on important issues of justice -- to build bridges in a nation too often divided and torn asunder by religious voices and by politicians who claim that God calls them to office.

Heck, I'd vote for this minister.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-chuck-currie/christianity-and-politics-in-america_b_939880.html

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'd like to see religion separated from Government. Just as churches aren't supposed to get involved in politics, candidates also should not be representing the church to which they belong.

Okay, but how exactly could that happen? Are you suggesting that a law should be passed or the Constitution amended? If so, how would it read?

 

[turbo]

Okay, but how exactly could that happen? Are you suggesting that a law should be passed or the Constitution amended? If so, how would it read?

How could candidates be legally prevented from touting their religious affiliations? I don't see a single avenue for that approach. Nothing that could stand even a cursory review, anyway.

 

[Evo]

Okay, but how exactly could that happen? Are you suggesting that a law should be passed or the Constitution amended? If so, how would it read?

I've never claimed to have ansers, I'm asking in this thread if people think using a specific religion as a political platform is right or wrong. I'm with the people that think it's wrong. That's all.

If enough people get tired of it and stand up against it, hopefully it will die off. People that throw their hands up in the air and say "we can't stop it, maybe it will go away if we don't do or say anything", may find that ignoring a problem usually doesn't make it go away.

 

[Proton Soup]

You don't believe in freedom of speech? You would ban religious speech in political debates and public formats? I don't understand your point here. What specifically would you do or like to see done?

yeah, and well, i just get this little feeling in my gut that this subject's preferred targets are christian "evangelicals". and what I'm hoping is that we won't see the thread get locked if the discussion becomes a little more inclusive.

and so I'm just going to put this out here and hope for the best. because people like michelle bachmann aren't only pandering to the christian right.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/...itzes_with_key_ny_jews_Ks5Rm6JnZBxW9OY78pwwoK

"We're meeting with people all across New York who are interested in my candidacy," Bachmann said as she ducked into a Broadway office building for a small, private sit-down with Orthodox Jewish leaders.

Bachmann spent about an hour at a private office discussing issues ranging from same-sex marriage to security for the Jewish state. She reminded the group she worked on a kibbutz in Israel 40 years ago.

Dov Hikind is an interesting guy, too. http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/08/dov_hikind_hates_gay_marriage.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uglr9NVU3LA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH4w2tIzxLg

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I've never claimed to have ansers, I'm asking in this thread if people think using a specific religion as a political platform is right or wrong. I'm with the people that think it's wrong. That's all.

If enough people get tired of it and stand up against it, hopefully it will die off. People that throw their hands up in the air and say "we can't stop it, maybe it will go away if we don't do or say anything", may find that ignoring a problem usually doesn't make it go away.

I don't think it's wrong but it's unacceptable. That's why I tend to vote for Democrats of late. I think that is your answer: Support the candidates who don't do this. What do you you think I'VE been screaming about for eight years?

Beyond that, it sounds like this should be a poll, not a thread. I don't see what there is to discuss given your parameters. When we discuss the rationale for various points of view, you say we're off topic. You asked a morality question; "right or wrong?".

 

[Evo]

I don't think it's wrong but it's unacceptable. That's why I tend to vote for Democrats of late. I think that is your answer: Support the candidates who don't do this.

If it's a concern, yes. Don't just sit there wringing your hands, or turn on *bridezillas* on reality tv.

Beyond that, it sounds like this should be a poll, not a thread. I don't see what there is to discuss given your parameters. When we discuss the rationale for various points of view, you say we're off topic.

I don't want to get into specific discussions of issues, trying to avoid heated debates on emotional topics.

I might add a poll, I'll need to get categories brought up in the articles on the subject, they seem to be able to explain better than I can.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

If it's a concern, yes. Don't just sit there wringing your hands, or turn on *bridezillas* on reality tv.

And send money.

Still ticks me off. For another $50, we would have gotten an autographed photo of Obama. I didn't even realize this until Tsu's uncle started bragging and showed us his personally signed photo [autosigned no doubt ].

I don't want to get into specific discussions of issues, trying to avoid heated debates on emotional topics.

So we can't explain why we think it's right or wrong and discuss those points?

 

[Evo]

And send money.

Still ticks me off. For another $50, we would have gotten an autographed photo of Obama. I didn't even realize this until Tsu's uncle started bragging and showed us his personally signed photo [autosigned no doubt ].




So we can't explain why we think it's right or wrong and discuss those points?

I don't want the thread to be an argument of specific issues, more along what this minister has to say

Let me repeat here what I've said in churches: A mistake that over the history of our nation both theological liberals and conservatives have made in different moments is to equate one political candidate or one political party as being somehow closer to God. We need to resist this impulse for several reasons. First, I've never been aware of any public figure -- at least since Jesus -- who fully understood the wisdom of God. We all fall short despite even the best of intentions. When the late Jerry Falwell and others argued during the 2004 elections that you could not be a Christian unless you voted for their preferred candidates, they supplanted their own beliefs for the Gospel teachings. Second, and perhaps more important, is that when we align the church with one candidate or one political party, we risk becoming an agent of that cause instead of an agent of God. Scripture teaches us that we are called by God to be loving critics of the conventional wisdom, not agents of the state.

Maybe it's a lost cause. Maybe the only people that really care are the ones that support religion in politics and I'm the misfit.

 

[MarcoD]

Maybe the only people that really care are the ones that support religion in politics and I'm the misfit.

Care about what? Everybody cares about things, it may very often just not be fleshed out very well.

Considering the caring, I wonder more whether democracy is failing since people invented the 'poll'. I have really wondered the last years whether just not all politicians are opportunistic and just maximize market shares with whichever emotion is popular in the public. And since both parties do that, but there will be differing opinions, in a two party system you end up with a 50%/50% divide on trivia by default (where everybody fervently agrees on common ground).

In essence, the poll might have turned the US into a direct democracy (at least, during voting time), but also popularized democracy such, that only the general 'feeling' of the public, as rationalized by representatives, is leading, and moral 'leadership' has degraded towards being the best front runner of the public's common 'emotional' response.

(Uh, I am not sure what I am trying to say here, or whether it is relevant.)

EDIT: This is also mostly an observation in the Netherlands where I've been wondering whether I am actually experiencing 'the end of democracy' as we knew it.

 

[Evo]

Care about what? Everybody cares about things, it may very often just not be fleshed out very well.

Considering the caring, I wonder more whether democracy is failing since people invented the 'poll'. I have really wondered the last years whether just not all politicians are opportunistic and just maximize market shares with whichever emotion is popular in the public. And since both parties do that, but there will be differing opinions, in a two party system you end up with a 50%/50% divide on trivia by default (where everybody fervently agrees on common ground).

In essence, the poll might have turned the US into a direct democracy (at least, during voting time), but also popularized democracy such, that only the general 'feeling' of the public, as rationalized by representatives, is leading, and moral 'leadership' has degraded towards being the best front runner of the public's common 'emotional' response.

(Uh, I am not sure what I am trying to say here, or whether it is relevant.)

It's that this year is unusual in regards to the number of politicians claiming that the Christian God wants to get into politics, through them, the ones God chose, more exactly fringe Christian Evangelical/fundamentalist church politicians.

I find this a disturbing trend.

Sure, we get the occasional crank running for office, but they are short lived because cranks usually aren't a well organized group with lots of money.

 

[MarcoD]

It's that this year is unusual in regards to the number of politicians claiming that the Christian God wants to get into politics, through them, the ones God chose, more exactly fringe Christian Evangelical/fundamentalist church politicians.

I find this a disturbing trend.

But doesn't this just simply mean that the US, as a democracy, wants Christian leader who talks to God? I mean, these people use polls right?

Maybe I am pessimistic, but in a claim by Bachman, which was something along the lines of 'my husband is the boss,' I just hear someone dropping a line, fishing for the vote of the neoconservative right.

These are troubling times, that makes people conservative, people may be looking for God (or rather, religious conservatism).

 

[Evo]

But doesn't this just simply mean that the US, as a democracy, wants Christian leader who talks to God? I mean, these people use polls right?

Maybe I am pessimistic, but in a claim by Bachman, which was something along the lines of 'my husband is the boss,' I just hear someone dropping a line, fishing for the vote of the neoconservative right.

These are troubling times, that makes people conservative, people may be looking for God (or rather, religious conservatism).

One of the problems is although they are a small number of the populace, they are highly organized and they have a lot of power and control. Republican politicians fear them and their threats (see previous posted articles), they can buy a lot of advertisements, making it appear that they have a lot of public support, which they don't, they can organize and mobilize their people to go to political rallies, to dictate to their members for whom they will vote, to register people that don't even know what's going on, get absentee ballots for those that don't know what's going on, and bus people to the polls to vote. IMO. I have been witness to this type of thing first hand through Born Again Christian friends that thought that they could bring me to their side by inviting me to their secret "prayer meetings" where they planned these things out in great detail. All it did was shock the crud out of me.

 

[Astronuc]

But doesn't this just simply mean that the US, as a democracy, wants Christian leader who talks to God?

. No!

 

[MarcoD]

One of the problems is although they are a small number of the populace, they are highly organized and they have a lot of power and control. Republican politicians fear them and their threats (see previous posted articles), they can buy a lot of advertisements, making it appear that they have a lot of public support, which they don't, they can organize and mobilize their people to go to political rallies, to dictate to their members for whom they will vote, to register people that don't even know what's going on, get absentee ballots for those that don't know what's going on, and bus people to the polls to vote. IMO. I have been witness to this type of thing first hand through Born Again Christian friends that thought that they could bring me to their side by inviting me to their secret "prayer meetings" where they planned these things out in great detail. All it did was shock the crud out of me.

Oh, that bad.