Positron to replace proton as the nucleus of an atom

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between positrons and protons in the context of atomic structure, specifically exploring why positrons can annihilate with electrons while protons do not. Participants delve into quantum mechanics and quantum field theory to understand the implications of mass equivalence and conservation laws in particle interactions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the intuitive quantum mechanical explanation for why positrons and electrons can annihilate due to their equal mass, while protons do not annihilate with electrons.
  • Another participant emphasizes the importance of conservation laws in annihilation processes, noting that both baryon and lepton numbers must be conserved.
  • It is proposed that positrons and electrons are excitations of the same underlying field, which may explain their annihilation behavior.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the relationship between creation and annihilation operators in quantum field theory, suggesting that electrons and positrons are quanta of the same field, unlike protons.
  • Participants engage in correcting each other’s statements, indicating a collaborative effort to refine their understanding of the concepts discussed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing levels of understanding regarding quantum field theory and the specifics of particle interactions, indicating that multiple competing views remain on the topic. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the intuitive explanations for the phenomena described.

Contextual Notes

Limitations in understanding quantum field theory are acknowledged, and there are unresolved aspects regarding the complexities of particle interactions and the implications of conservation laws.

jaydnul
Messages
558
Reaction score
15
I know that the positron and electron have the same mass, which allows them to annihilate, and I know how solve the 2 body Schrödinger for a standard hydrogen atom to get the orbitals.

My question is why the math works out the way it does. Is there an "intuitive" (I use that word cautiously) quantum mechanical explanation as to why the masses have to be the same in order to annihilate and why the electron will keep its distance if the nucleus' mass is different? Why don't the proton and electron annihilate and just produce enough radiation to make up for the differences in mass/energy?

Thanks
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Jd0g33 said:
I know that the positron and electron have the same mass, which allows them to annihilate, and I know how solve the 2 body Schrödinger for a standard hydrogen atom to get the orbitals.

In order to annihilate conservation laws need to be observed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron–positron_annihilation

A proton is a Baryon and the electron a Lepton. Both Baryon and Lepton numbers must be conserved.

But the most fundamental reason is probably that positrons and electrons are excitations of the same underlying field. Quantum Field Theory (QFT) isn't an area I know well off the top of my head, but if I recall correctly the creation operator of an electron is the same as the annihilation operator of a positron, and conversely - also when applied to each other creation and annihilation give a big fat nothing. So each destroying the other is the same as nothing overall being created and destroyed.

But I may be corrected on that by those those that know QFT better.

Thanks
Bill
 
Last edited:
bhobba said:
But the most fundamental reason is probably that photons and electrons are excitations of the same underlying field.
you mean that "the most fundamental reason is probably that positrons and electrons are excitations of the same underlying field."
 
Last edited:
bhobba said:
... if I recall correctly the creation operator of an electron is the same as the annihilation operator of a positron, and conversely ...
it's slightly more complicated that that, but in essence electrons and positrons are quanta of the same underlying field, whereas protons (consisting of quarks and gluons) are related to other fields
 
tom.stoer said:
you mean that "the most fundamental reason is probably that positrons and electrons are excitations of the same underlying field.

:-p:-p:-p:-p

You caught me out - now corrected.

Thanks
Bill
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K