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Possible matter being Created/Destroyed?

  1. May 1, 2012 #1
    Well I'm a pretty young kid. But i know a lot about physics and a special astronomy. Me and another very intelligent Friend were talking about something today. The first rule of thermodynamic states that energy cant be created nor destroyed. Matter is a type of energy but in a more compact state (I'm not Sure if I'm correct). At the edge of the universe the universe is expanding/Collapsing. If it is expanding more and more of the universe is being created out of nothing. Wouldn't this be matter being Created and if/or it were collapsing were would all the matter go therefore it would be destroyed? Also All the matter being sucked into black holes does the intense gravity destroy anything being sucked in? Thank you for all your answers. O yes i forgot I'm 12 turning 13 if any of you wanted to know.
     
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  3. May 1, 2012 #2
    Edit: I'm Really wondering so can anyone please answer ?
     
  4. May 1, 2012 #3

    phinds

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    Welcome to the forum. I do suggest that you read the rules. IMMEDIATE bumps are not appreciated. Once after 24 hours is acceptable.

    You have a misunderstanding in that there IS no "edge" to the universe so the rest of that question is meaningless.

    No one really knows WHAT happens inside a black hole but for small black holes, matter is heavily distorted outside of the event horizon (look up spaghettification).

    EDIT: I suggest that you read the FAQ in the Cosmology subforum. Some really useful info there and it is reliable, unlike much of what you find on the internet.
     
  5. May 1, 2012 #4
    What I meant to say is not the edge of the universe but the point of where the universe is expanding. The point would be like the absolute farthest you can go in the universe but that point keeps getting farther and farther as it expands.
     
  6. May 1, 2012 #5

    HallsofIvy

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    You are completely misunderstanding what "expanding universe" means. The universe is "expanding" everywhere not just at "the absolute farthest you can go". That is, the distance between the sun and proxima centauri is very, very sightly greater than it was last year, the distance between the sun and the earth is very, very, very slightly greater (an unmeasurably small change). It is space itself that is expanding.
     
  7. May 1, 2012 #6
    O ok thank you but i have one more question if i may ask. In the big ban theory it states that a explosion cause the universe to start expanding. If this is true then why did the universe start expanding from that one point. Wouldn't matter be created as the universe grew and grew?
     
  8. May 1, 2012 #7

    phinds

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    The Big Bang theory most emphatically does NOT say that it started at a point, in fact, it says quite the opposite ... it started EVERYWHERE. There is no center, there is no edge. There was never a "point of origin".

    You need to read up on cosmology, as I have already suggested.
     
  9. May 2, 2012 #8

    sophiecentaur

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    It is a difficult concept to deal with but Space, itself, was very 'small' at the time of the BB. At least, that's what observations imply.
     
  10. May 2, 2012 #9
    How would it start every where? It must have started from a specific point and started growing from that point on. If I'm wrong and you are right how would it start expanding from everywhere and where is everywhere?
     
  11. May 2, 2012 #10

    phinds

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    HOW it did that is a good question and I'm not aware that anyone knows the answer. THAT it did that is not in serious dispute and is accepted cosmology.

    Things on the very large scale (cosmology) and the very small scale (quantum mechanics) are often completely unlike what our intuition and experience tells us they should be because we do not LIVE in those scales. Read some actual science instead of thinking that your intuition/experience is worth anything in these situations.
     
  12. May 2, 2012 #11

    phinds

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    I think "smaller" is a better description, since it is possible that it was infinite, which of course isn't really "small".
     
  13. May 2, 2012 #12

    sophiecentaur

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    I think the word "small" is OK for a 13 yr old. "Infinite" and relative sizes of Infinity tends to bring on the pains.
     
  14. May 2, 2012 #13
    One analogy which may be useful here is that the universe is not expanding like the volume of a balloon expands when you blow it up. Rather it is like the three dimensions of our universe are reduced to the two dimensions of the balloon's surface. As the balloon is blown up, every point recedes from every other point and there is no farthest point.

    Disclaimer: This analogy fails on various levels including that we have no evidence that the universe is closed, but it should be sufficient for this discussion.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2012
  15. May 2, 2012 #14
    Your question is very important reguardless of your age. It shows you can think out of the box and think for yourself. It is a theoretical question to which there is no answer only theories. In my opinion a real conversation is needed on this topic with knowledgeable people who understand this. Understanding the problem and The Scientific Method is very important. This is how we learn and check the information we use. I will say this to you, the rules of quantum and classical objects are what this is about. You are correct it is about energy and what that is when the formula E=Mc2 is applied. Energy is how we describe matter which is everywhere under the E=Mc2 equation. In my opinion keep on doing what you are doing. Imagine in your mind what these concepts are. Think like a Einstein. This will bring you and me closer to a understanding of the truth when we collaborate and figure this out. The so called Unified Field theory.
     
  16. May 2, 2012 #15

    phinds

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    Good point.
     
  17. May 2, 2012 #16
    My understanding was that distances between objects in gravitationally-bound systems such as galaxies and solar systems are not increasing.
     
  18. May 2, 2012 #17

    phinds

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    That is correct. Hallsofivy clearly does not understand the expansion.
     
  19. May 2, 2012 #18
    This is a analogy that my science teacher told me. But there is something wrong with useing a balloon being blown up as a analogy. The balloon expands because of the matter your adding in to it. You are taking air from your lungs/helium from a tank and putting it inside of the balloon while nothing is adding matter to the universe. This is why i though new matter was being created.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2012
  20. May 2, 2012 #19
    It is not necessary to add matter to a balloon for it to expand. The balloon could be put in a vacuum chamber and the air in the chamber be pumped out.

    The point is we don't know exactly why the universe is expanding. I think the consensus would be however that adding matter to the universe would tend to reverse the expansion.
     
  21. May 2, 2012 #20

    Drakkith

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    A couple of things here. First, it is our current understanding that the universe is most likely infinite in size. This is extremely hard to understand, so don't worry if it doesn't make sense at first. Second, when we look far away in the distant universe we see it as it was in the past. (Because light travels at a finite speed, not instantly) So we can view the universe as it was at various points in the past.

    Our observations have told us that everything in the universe that is larger than a galaxy cluster is getting further away from everything else.(Galaxies group into clusters, which then group into Superclusters) IE our own galaxy's supercluster is getting further away from all other superclusters. We also see that the way everything is moving is apparently the result of ALL superclusters getting further away from ALL OTHER galaxy superclusters.

    This effect of everything getting further away from everything else is what we call "Expansion". Take a rubber band and draw 5 dots equally spaced apart on it. Now, hold the rubber band with your thumb on the first dot and pull it with the other hand. You will notice that dot 2 is a little bit away from dot 1. BUT, dot 3 is about twice the distance from dot 1 that dot 2 is. And dot 4 is about 4 times the distance that dot 2 is, and twice the distance that dot 3 is.

    Now take the rubber band, hold it with your thumbs on the end dots and pull with both hands, keeping the middle dot from moving around. From that dots point of view, the dots next to it are a little bit away, but the end dots are twice as far! This is how expansion works, except that the dots are actually galaxies. From each galaxies point of view everything else is expanding away from it.

    The key here is to realize and understand that we CANNOT see the entire universe. It simply isn't possible. We can only see a small portion of it that we call the "Observable Universe". So we think that the universe is either MUCH larger than what we can see, but still finite in size, or it is infinite.

    Since we see this, we can reasonably say "If the universe is expanding, then in the past everything must have been closer together". So we do our models and work backwards and eventually we come to find out that far back in the past everything in the universe seemed to be so close to everything else that the density and temperature was VERY VERY large. It gets to the point that we can't even calculate what happens because our math starts to give us infinities and nonsense. It is at this point that we say the "Big Bang happened".

    This is my understanding as well.
     
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