Properties of Ackermann's function

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of Ackermann's function, focusing on proving various inequalities and relationships involving the function. Participants explore different proof techniques, primarily induction, to establish these properties, which include comparisons of the function's values based on its arguments.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes several properties of Ackermann's function, including $A(x,y) > y$ and $A(x,y+1) > A(x,y)$, and outlines a proof strategy using induction on $x$ and $y$.
  • Another participant questions how to prove properties 3 and 6, suggesting that properties 2 and 4 might be useful in the proofs.
  • A different participant attempts to prove property 3 using induction on the difference $d = y_2 - y_1$, providing a base case and inductive step but seeks validation on the correctness of their approach.
  • Further discussion includes a proposed proof for property 5, using induction on the sum $k = x + y$, with a base case and inductive hypothesis outlined.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants are engaged in a collaborative exploration of the proofs, with some expressing uncertainty about the correctness of their approaches and seeking feedback. No consensus is reached on the proofs, and multiple methods are proposed for establishing the properties.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the application of induction and the use of specific properties in their proofs. The discussion reveals a reliance on the definitions and properties of Ackermann's function without resolving the mathematical steps or assumptions involved.

mathmari
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Hey! :o

I want to show the following properties of Ackermann's function:

  1. $A(x,y)>y$.
  2. $A(x,y+1)>A(x,y)$.
  3. If $y_2>y_1$, then $A(x,y_2)>A(x,y_1)$.
  4. $A(x+1, y) \geq A(x,y+1)$.
  5. $A(x,y)>x$.
  6. If $x_2>x_1$, then $A(x_2, y)>A(x_1, y)$.
  7. $A(x+2, y)>A(x,2y)$.
I have done the following:

  1. Induction on $x$.
  2. Induction on $x$.
    Base case: For $x=0$ we have $A(0,y+1)=y+2>y+1=A(0,y)$, by the definition of $A$.

    Inductive hypothesis: We assume that it holds for $x=n$, that means $A(n,y+1)>A(n,y)$ (I.H.x)

    Inductive step: We want to show that $A(n+1, y+1)>A(n+1,y)$.
    By the definition of $A$ and by the property $1$ we have $A(n+1, y+1)=A(n,A(n+1, y))>A(n+1,y)$.

  3. Induction on $y$.
    Base case: For $y=0$ we have $A(x+1, 0)=A(x,1)=A(x,0+1)$.

    Inductive hypothesis: We assume that it holds for $y=m$, that means $A(x+1, m) \geq A(x,m+1)$ (I.H.)

    Inductive step: We want to show that $A(x+1, m+1) \geq A(x,m+2)$.
    By the definition we have $A(x+1, m+1)=A(x,A(x+1, m))$. By the (I.H.) and the property $1$ we have $A(x+1, m) \geq A(x,m+1)>m+1 \Rightarrow A(x+1, m) \geq A(x,m+1) \geq m+2$. By the property $3$ we have $A(x,A(x+1,m)) \geq A(x,m+2)$. So, we cocnlude that $A(x+1, m+1) \geq A(x,m+2)$.
  4. By the property $4$ we have $A(x+1, y) \geq A(x,y+1)$. So, we have $A(x,y) \geq A(x-1, y+1) \geq A(x-2, y+2) \geq \dots \geq A(0,x+y)=x+y+1>x$.
    But how can we prove this formally??

  5. Induction on $y$.
    Base case: For $y=0$ we have by the property $6$ $A(x+2, 0)>A(x,0)=A(x,2 \cdot 0)$.

    Inductive hypothesis: We assume that it holds for $y=m$, that means $A(x+2, m)>A(x,2m)$ (I.H.)

    Inductive step: We want to show that $A(x+2, m+1) > A(x,2(m+1))$.
    By the definition of $A$ we have $A(x+2, m+1)=A(x+1, A(x+2, m))$. By the (I.H.) we have $A(x+2, m)>A(x,2m)$. By the property $3$ we have $A(x+2, m+1)>A(x+1, A(x,2m))$. By the property $4$ we have $A(x+1, A(x,2m)) \geq A(x,A(x,2m)+1)$ According to the property $1$, $A(x,2m)>2m \Rightarrow A(x,2m) \geq 2m+1$ or equivalently $A(x,2m)+1 \geq 2m+2=2(m+1)$. By the property $3$ we have $A(x,A(x,2m)+1) \geq A(x,2(m+1))$. So, $A(x+2, m+1)>A(x,2(m+1))$.

Is this correct?? Could I improve something?? (Wondering)

Could you give me some hints to prove the properties $3, 6$ ?? (Wondering)
 
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At the proof of the properties $3$ and $6$ do we use the properties $2$ and $4$ respectively?

But how? (Wondering)

For example, for the property $3$ would the proof be as follows?

Induction on $x$.

Base case: For $x=0$ we have $A(0,y_2)=y_2+1>y_1+1=A(0,y_1)$

Inductive hypothesis: We assume that it holds for $x=n$, that means $A(n,y_2)>A(n,y_1)$ (I.H)

Inductive step: We want to show that $A(n+1,y_2)>A(n+1,y_1)$.

How can we continue?
 
I tried again to prove the property $3$:

$y_2>y_1 \Rightarrow y_2=y_1+d, d>0 \Rightarrow d=y_2-y_1>0$

Induction on $d$.

Base case: For $d=1$ we have $A(x, y_2)=A(x, y_1+1) \overset{(2)}{>}A(x, y_1)$.

Inductive hypothesis: We assume that it holds for $d=k$, that means that $A(x, y_2)=A(x, y_1+k)>A(x, y_1)$ (I.H.)

Inductive step: We want to show that $A(x, y_1+(k+1))>A(x, y_1)$
$A(x, y_1+k+1)=A(x, (y_1+k)+1)\overset{(2)}{>}A(x, y_1+k)\overset{ (I.H.) }{>}A(x, y_1)$ Is this correct? Could I improve something? (Wondering)

The proof of the property $6$ is similar, isn't it?

On which variable do we use the induction for the property $5$ ?
 
For the property $5$ do we do the following?

We will show that $$A(x, y) \geq A(0, x+y)$$ by induction on $k=x+y$. Base case: For $k=0$ we have $x=y=0$, so $A(0, 0) \geq A(0, 0)$.

Inductive hypothesis: We assume that it stands for $k=n$, $A(x, y) \geq A(0, n)$. (I.H.)

Inductive step: We will show that it stands for $k=n+1$, $x+1+y=n+1$, that means that $A(x+1, y) \geq A(0, n+1)=(n+1)+1=n+2$.
We have that $A(x+1, y) >A(x, y) \overset{ (I.H.) }{\geq} A(0, n)=n+1$.
$A(x+1, y)>n+1 \Rightarrow A(x+1, y) \geq n+2$. So, we have that $A(x, y) \geq A(0, x+y)=x+y+1>x+y$. Is this correct?
 

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