Properties of Metric $\sigma(x,y)$

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of a proposed metric $\sigma(x,y) = \min \{ 1, \rho(x,y) \}$, derived from an existing metric $\rho(x,y)$ on a set $X$. Participants explore whether $\sigma$ satisfies the properties of a metric, particularly focusing on the triangle inequality.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant outlines the properties of $\rho(x,y)$ and attempts to demonstrate that $\sigma(x,y)$ is a metric by verifying non-negativity, identity of indiscernibles, symmetry, and the triangle inequality.
  • Another participant challenges the assumption that $\rho(x,y) < 1$ for all $x,y$, suggesting that the breakdown of cases for the triangle inequality is insufficient without considering all possible scenarios.
  • There is a proposal to analyze the triangle inequality by considering cases where both $\rho(x,y)$ and $\rho(y,z)$ are less than 1, one is less than 1 and the other greater, and both are greater than 1.
  • Participants discuss the implications of specific values for $\rho(x,y)$ and how they affect the validity of the triangle inequality.
  • Questions arise about the formal explanation of cases and whether the breakdown of cases needs further refinement.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the triangle inequality for $\sigma(x,y)$. There are competing views on how to approach the proof, with some suggesting the need for more case distinctions while others question the assumptions made.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the completeness of their case breakdowns and the assumptions about the values of $\rho(x,y)$. There is a lack of resolution on how to formally explain the first case in the triangle inequality.

evinda
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Hello! (Wave)
I want to show that if $\rho(x,y)$ is a metric on $X$, then $\sigma (x,y)= \min \{ 1, \rho(x,y) \}$ is a metric.

I have thought the following:

$\rho(x,y)$ is a metric on $X$, so:

  • $\rho(x,y) \geq 0, \forall x,y \in X$
  • $\rho(x,y)=0$ iff $x=y$
  • $\rho(x,y)=\rho(y,x) \forall x,y \in X$
  • $\rho(x,z) \leq \rho(x,y)+\rho(y,z), \forall x,y,z \in X$

  • $\sigma(x,y)= \min \{ 1, \rho(x,y) \} \geq 0 \forall x,y \in X$ since $1 \geq 0$ and $\rho(x,y) \geq 0, \forall x,y \in X$
  • $\sigma(x,y)=0 \Leftrightarrow \min \{ 1, \rho(x,y) \} =0 \Leftrightarrow \rho(x,y)=0 \Leftrightarrow x=y$
  • $\sigma(x,y)= \min \{ 1, \rho(x,y) \}= \min \{ 1, \rho(y,x) \}=\sigma(y,x) \forall x,y \in X$
  • Suppose that $1< \rho(x,y), \forall x,y \in X$. Then $\sigma(x,z)=1 \leq 1+1= \sigma(x,y)+ \sigma(y,z)$.
    Suppose that $1> \rho(x,y), \forall x,y \in X$. Then $\sigma(x,z)= \rho(x,z) \leq \rho(x,y)+ \rho(x,z)= \sigma(x,y)+ \sigma(x,z)$

Could I improve something? Could we also show the last inequalities without distinguishing cases? (Thinking)
 
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I would say you're solid on everything except the triangle inequality. I don't see any particular reason to make such a strong assumption as $1>\rho(x,y)$ for all $x,y$. How do you know there aren't two pairs of numbers, one of which has a $\rho$ distance greater than $1$, and the other pair less than $1$? Your breakdown of cases doesn't handle this case. Let me see:
$$\sigma(x,z)=\min\{1,\rho(x,z)\}\le\min\{1,\rho(x,y)+\rho(y,z)\}.$$
If you could say that
$$\min\{1,\rho(x,y)+\rho(y,z)\}\le\min\{1,\rho(x,y)\}+\min\{1,\rho(y,z)\},$$
then you'd be done. Is that the case? Here's where you would need a breakdown by cases - I don't see any way around it. But the cases are the following:
  1. Both $\rho(x,y)$ and $\rho(y,z)$ are less than $1$.
  2. One of the two $\rho$ distances is less than $1$, and one is greater.
  3. Both the $\rho$ distances are greater than $1$.
By symmetry, we can ignore, in the second case, which $\rho$ distance is greater than $1$. I would do a "without loss of generality", and pick one to be bigger, and one smaller.

Does that help?
 
Ackbach said:
I would say you're solid on everything except the triangle inequality. I don't see any particular reason to make such a strong assumption as $1>\rho(x,y)$ for all $x,y$. How do you know there aren't two pairs of numbers, one of which has a $\rho$ distance greater than $1$, and the other pair less than $1$? Your breakdown of cases doesn't handle this case. Let me see:
$$\sigma(x,z)=\min\{1,\rho(x,z)\}\le\min\{1,\rho(x,y)+\rho(y,z)\}.$$
If you could say that
$$\min\{1,\rho(x,y)+\rho(y,z)\}\le\min\{1,\rho(x,y)\}+\min\{1,\rho(y,z)\},$$
then you'd be done. Is that the case? Here's where you would need a breakdown by cases - I don't see any way around it. But the cases are the following:
  1. Both $\rho(x,y)$ and $\rho(y,z)$ are less than $1$.
  2. One of the two $\rho$ distances is less than $1$, and one is greater.
  3. Both the $\rho$ distances are greater than $1$.
By symmetry, we can ignore, in the second case, which $\rho$ distance is greater than $1$. I would do a "without loss of generality", and pick one to be bigger, and one smaller.

Does that help?

At the first case, doesn't it always hold that $\min\{1,\rho(x,y)+\rho(y,z)\}=\min\{1,\rho(x,y)\}+\min\{1,\rho(y,z)\}=\rho(x,y)+\rho(y,z)$ ? (Thinking)

Also do we show the last case for example as follows? (Thinking)
$\min\{1,\rho(x,y)+\rho(y,z)\}=1 \leq 1+1=\min\{1,\rho(x,y)\}+\min\{1,\rho(y,z)\}$
 
evinda said:
At the first case, doesn't it always hold that $\min\{1,\rho(x,y)+\rho(y,z)\}=\min\{1,\rho(x,y)\}+\min\{1,\rho(y,z)\}=\rho(x,y)+\rho(y,z)$ ? (Thinking)

What about $1=\min(1,0.75+0.75)\overset{?}{=}\min(1,0.75)+\min(1,0.75)=1.5$?

Also do we show the last case for example as follows? (Thinking)

$\min\{1,\rho(x,y)+\rho(y,z)\}=1 \leq 1+1=\min\{1,\rho(x,y)\}+\min\{1,\rho(y,z)\}$

Sure, that works!
 
Ackbach said:
What about $1=\min(1,0.75+0.75)\overset{?}{=}\min(1,0.75)+\min(1,0.75)=1.5$?

Ah, I see... But how can we explain the first case formally? (Thinking)

Ackbach said:
Sure, that works!

Great... (Smirk)
 
evinda said:
Ah, I see... But how can we explain the first case formally? (Thinking)

Hmm. Well, maybe we broke the cases down incorrectly. What if the cases should be, instead,
  1. $\rho(x,y)+\rho(y,z)<1$
  2. $\rho(x,y)+\rho(y,z)>1$
I would try a few actual numbers in there to see if you need to further subdivide these cases.
 

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