- #36
Coin
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I think that the "sociology of physics" posts are pretty easy to ignore-- there aren't that many of them. And the subforum feature on this forum is a little wonky.
marcus said:Thanks for the supportive comment, Mike. We seem to be outnumbered here
I agree. Rates of publication in scholarly journals, and citation counts, are very important to getting perspective on the progress and directions of research. I don't think that sort of information should be bannished or suppressed. It is hardly proper to call it "sociology" and it forms a common part of academic discussion.
First off, your idea about string theory, lqg, etc. having no physical model or equations is completely off. Secondly, what makes something sound science is not whether it has equations but whether they are testable and not already inconsistent with what has been established.founding said:I'm not sure why Moving Dimensions Theory, with a definitive equation and physical model is labeled as such; while string theory, lqg, and garrett lisi, without physical equations and physical models, are exalted.
gogins said:I think that summaries of papers, book sales figures, and various indicators of which scientists are succeeding or not in gaining interest and adherents to their views are in fact a vital part of the scientific process. Such things are indirect evidence of what practicing scientists think is actually worth following up or working through. I am sure that those who hire or evaluate scientists are paying attention to such things.
There is of course a vital difference between interest shown by practicing researchers, especially but by no means exclusively those in respected institutions, and some other sorts of people (like me) who also are welcome on this list.
Regards,
Mike Gogins
marcus said:Thanks for the supportive comment, Mike. We seem to be outnumbered here
I agree. Rates of publication in scholarly journals, and citation counts, are very important to getting perspective on the progress and directions of research. I don't think that sort of information should be bannished or suppressed. It is hardly proper to call it "sociology" and it forms a common part of academic discussion.
robphy said:In my opinion, that sort of discussion sounds like it could belong in
"Academic & Career Guidance"
...
ZapperZ said:Let's be very clear on this from this point onwards.
This forum should be used for the discussion of the physics, first and foremost.
If it contains anything else, then be forewarned that the post may be deleted, edited, moved, etc at the discretion of the Mentors.
Is this clear, or is there still something people don't quite understand yet?
Zz.
Year Number of papers Total cites during that year
2002 10 2955
2007 1 225
marcus said:Point of clarification, Zapper. Is this of the physics? Here is an example:
Number of recent string papers making the Spires Top Fifty, by year
Code:Year Number of papers Total cites during that year 2002 10 2955 2007 1 225
I think this is enormously significant and it has not been discussed or explained. I brought it up earlier---see the link a couple of posts back. It points to something very basic that has been going on in Beyond Standard research, or fundamental physics.
In case anyone is unfamiliar with the context, recent here means published in the past 5 years. In 2002 the recent string papers got 2955 cites (ten papers made the Spires list.)
And in 2007 one paper made the list and it received 225 cites. It seems that the string theorists themselves are attributing an order of magnitude less significance to their own recent work! How can this be explained? What does it say about what is going on?
OK, is raising this kind of question ABOUT PHYSICS or not? Is it appropriate and welcome in this subforum? Or is it liable to be suppressed or moved?
If it is not deemed proper to the BSM subforum----but is about the general overview of BSM research---where does it belong?
founding said:I think that limiting this forum to LQG, string theory, and garret lisi inevitably directs the conversations away...
arivero said:I agree but because of different reasons. There is a failure from the start: Almost everyone in the subforum seems to adhere to the thinking that any BSM thing must be about gravity or must include gravity.
Thus particle physics beyond the standard model has not a place in PhysicsForums.
arivero said:For instance, just today the following threads in the subforum "High Energy, Nuclear, Particle Physics " should/could be moved here:
Tachyon Question
Dangers of the LHC
BPS states.
NO Planck Scale!
Low energy Neutrinos
Where is Higgs boson?
marcus said:Number of recent string papers making the Spires Top Fifty, by year
Code:Year Number of papers Total cites during that year 2002 10 2955 2007 1 225
Fra said:My personal impression is that focusing on the foundations of BSM physics: discussing what is science, what directions to pursue and fund is an important point, and moving them to the sociology sections somehow doesn't seem fair.
It's like banning questioning the questions and the context generating them, which is something that disheartens me at least, and it also goes against my personal idea of openminded science.
If most people want to use this forum to discuss more hands-on theories withing a given choice of context then I guess that has to be respected but then how about something more appropriate like "foundations of BSM" section where people can discuss the foundations, scientific methodology that provide the context and breething ground for any BSM theories? After all, if the foundational platform is skewed, there seems to be at least a possible risk that the right questions aren't asked. My interpretation of many of marucs posts is to hightlight that.
To dismiss that to sociology doesn't sound like progress IMHO.
/Fredrik
Gokul43201 said:Not those, but the "All the Lepton masses..." thread is definitely better suited to BtSM than HEP! Oops! I guess this tells you how I voted in that poll.
Fra said:My personal impression is that focusing on the foundations of BSM physics: discussing what is science, what directions to pursue and fund is an important point, and moving them to the sociology sections somehow doesn't seem fair.
It's like banning questioning the questions and the context generating them, which is something that disheartens me at least, and it also goes against my personal idea of openminded science.
If most people want to use this forum to discuss more hands-on theories withing a given choice of context then I guess that has to be respected but then how about something more appropriate like "foundations of BSM" section where people can discuss the foundations, scientific methodology that provide the context and breething ground for any BSM theories? After all, if the foundational platform is skewed, there seems to be at least a possible risk that the right questions aren't asked. My interpretation of many of marucs posts is to hightlight that.
To dismiss that to sociology doesn't sound like progress IMHO.
/Fredrik
nrqed said:And all these comments do not even involve the even more irrelevant comemnts such as "who did his PhD with whom and who is a rising start and deserves a postdoc at such and such institution" which , IMHO constitute noise which lowers the credibility of the forum.
Cincinnatus joined 05.17.05Cincinnatus said:I've been reading physicsforums probably longer than almost everyone else here.
What is this critical mass ?This is the only forum (that I've read) on physicsforums that has a critical mass of professionals in the field. Thus it is the only subforum that very often has the potential for really substantive non explicitly didactic discussions.
No this is not real science. This is ABOUT science.This includes discussions of which direction the field is ultimately going. This is a real science question (not a question ABOUT science as you are saying).
No he would not ! There are published reviews on those questions. They are shorter, better written, peer-reviewed, better organized and structured, have clear disclaimers involving the identity of the author...Lets say someone were able to learn all about theoretical physics exclusively from this board. Let's pretend this person was equally theoretically knowledgeable as any professional. I would argue that without these threads about the social aspects of the science, this person would be missing a vital part of their education in the field.
Cincinnatus said:I've stumbled onto this discussion late. Though I do sometimes lurk on this subforum so I'd like to say something about it. Also, it seems like you are making decisions here that affect all of physicsforums.
It is my humble opinion that threads about the social aspects of a subject are not only merely appropriate for a forum dedicated to that subject but that they should be actively encouraged.
I've been reading physicsforums probably longer than almost everyone else here. I started lurking on this board (the original version) when I was in high school. I am now in graduate school. So I've seen these forums evolve over a long time. I have always had a layman's interest in high energy physics so I've often read the beyond the standard model subforum.
For the last few years I've looked to this subforum as exactly how I'd hoped the rest of the board (particularly the now-defunct mind and brain forum) would evolve. This is the only forum (that I've read) on physicsforums that has a critical mass of professionals in the field. Thus it is the only subforum that very often has the potential for really substantive non explicitly didactic discussions.
This includes discussions of which direction the field is ultimately going. This is a real science question (not a question ABOUT science as you are saying). It just so happens that the only way to answer it involves social as well as physical factors. So what? ...
humanino said:Cincinnatus joined 05.17.05
nqred joined 08.30.04
arivero joined 03.17.03
ZapperZ joined 01.20.04
nrqed said:My reply is the following: governmental funding is also an important factor determining the direction science takes. So politics is also an important factor. Who will be elected and appointed in certain key positions will impact how much money will be devoted to fundamental research and to different labs etc etc.
Cincinnatus said:I don't really see why the conversations can't coexist on the same subforum. Surely if you want to make a good impression on a passing newcomer the best way to do that would be to post more of the threads you find interesting, not prevent others from posting what they find interesting.
But that's the key point. If you allow talking about citations, number of books sold, who should be hired by whom, etc, then you have no justification to remove a thread from someone talking about politics.Cincinnatus said:I agree it is a slippery slope. Since threads about politics haven't been showing up here, I don't see why this is an issue. It doesn't seem to have been going quite that far.
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But there is already a subforum General Discussion for coffee maker type of conversations.Physicsforums needs to decide whether it wants to be an informal version of a journal article or a formal version of a "physicist's conversation by the coffee maker"
Some of us think the latter would be more valuable, some clearly the former. I don't really see why the conversations can't coexist on the same subforum. Surely if you want to make a good impression on a passing newcomer the best way to do that would be to post more of the threads you find interesting, not prevent others from posting what they find interesting.
ZapperZ said:I don't think so.
Zz.
Cincinnatus said:It is my humble opinion that threads about the social aspects of a subject are not only merely appropriate for a forum dedicated to that subject but that they should be actively encouraged.
George Jones said:These days, BPS states usually arise in the context of supersymmetry and D-branes. In this context, their natural home is the Beyond the Standard Model forum.
The latest thread on BPS states in the High Energy, Nuclear, Particle Physics forum, doesn't appear to be in this context, but I'm not entirely sure. Even if this latest thread is in the "right" forum, it might have a better shot at being answered in the Beyond the Standard Model by people knowledgeable about BPS states.
It's not always clear where a thread belongs.
That's by far the best solution. However, it will require a lot of work and I am not sure admins will consider it worth.Cincinnatus said:Why not create a sub-sub forum of beyond the standard model to house these posts?
nrqed said:And all these comments do not even involve the even more irrelevant comments such as "who did his PhD with whom and who is a rising star and deserves a postdoc at such and such institution" which , IMHO constitute noise which lowers the credibility of the forum.
arivero said:Again, I think it is my fault here. Time ago I did some queries about the PhD advisor/student relationships in theoretical physics; in fact it is also my fault the existence of a "tree mode" in SPIRES HEPnames database (Not that I programmed it, but I suggested it). When my page on this genealogy was about to dissapear, it was transplanted into the wikipedia.
Whatever. The observation of this genealogy is that about one half of the Nobel Prizes are awarded to people whose "family" has already a Nobel Prize. And also the same seems to apply to minor rewards, as "topcites".
The interpretation is that it happens because there are only a few groups leading, across time, the research on key topics of fundamental/theoretical/particle physics. Why does it happen, that should be worth of a real sociology discussion. But the point is that adscription to one of the "key families" is a hint of possible hotness of a topic.
This was discussed a lot of time ago, and perhaps not even in PF. So when some mention of this kind appears here, it lacks context, I am afraid.
josh1 said:A compromise solution might be a sticky. But the initiating post would have to make quite clear the sociological and therefore fundamentally unscientific and even meaningless nature of the thread. It might even be a kind of trash thread.