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No. It is not a proof. Again, you do not prove definitions. You write them down and prove that they are unambiguous and consistent.jack action said:Isn't that a proof?
No. It is not a proof. Again, you do not prove definitions. You write them down and prove that they are unambiguous and consistent.jack action said:Isn't that a proof?
jack action said:Well, that looks more like a proof to me and it is a much more useful answer than your previous ones. And it is certainly better than @PeroK 's answer who basically said «let's create an arbitrary definition and see if it's "logical and consistent"» (which makes no sense to me as a mathematical proof).
The current Wikipedia article does not develop definitions and theorems dealing with exponents in a mathematically precise way. It is a survey article, similar to the treatment of exponents in high school mathematics texts, which give the "properties" of exponents without specifying which properties are definitions and which are theorems. For example, in the section "Zero Exponent" the statement "##b^0=1##" is made before the supposed deduction in a later section that ##b^0=1##.jack action said:I know Wikipedia is not considered the best reference, but here what they have to say about exponentiation:
Considering the OP's question AND the fact that this thread is classified as "B" [Thread Level: Basic (high school)], don't all of you think this is the kind of «proof» the OP is looking for?jbriggs444 said:You write them down and prove that they are unambiguous and consistent.
My suspicion is that OP believes that there is an underlying "true" definition for ##a^0## which can be proven correct from first principles. As has been pointed out, such a belief is fundamentally mistaken.jack action said:@jbriggs444 , @PeroK , @Stephen Tashi ,
Considering the OP's question AND the fact that this thread is classified as "B" [Thread Level: Basic (high school)], don't all of you think this is the kind of «proof» the OP is looking for?
jack action said:@jbriggs444 , @PeroK , @Stephen Tashi ,
Considering the OP's question AND the fact that this thread is classified as "B" [Thread Level: Basic (high school)], don't all of you think this is the kind of «proof» the OP is looking for?
Rijad Hadzic said:So at what point can I just define something without proving its true
might lead one to the assumption that each number b has a multiplicative inverse and that the multiplicative inverse of a number b is a unique number (i.e. that b cannot have two unequal multiplicative inverses). Neither of those statements is established merely by giving a definition of the notation "##b^{-1}##"."##b^{-1}## is (defined to be) the multiplicative inverse of the number b"
mathwonk said:let a>0, and let f be a continuous real valued function defined on all reals such that f(n) = a.a...a (n times) = a^n, for n = any positive integer. and assume that f(x+y) = f(x).f(y) for all reals x,y. then we claim that :
@mathwonk Furthermore, why do you assume f(x+y) = f(x).f(y) for all reals x,y? Another interesting rule would be f(x+y) = f(x)/f(y). Then you get a whole new set of defntions for powers etc.mathwonk said:let a>0, and let f be a continuous real valued function defined on all reals such that f(n) = a.a...a (n times) = a^n, for n = any positive integer. and assume that f(x+y) = f(x).f(y) for all reals x,y. then we claim that :
So ##f(x) = \frac{f(x/2)}{f(x/2)} = 1## for all x. That does not sound very interesting.Rada Demorn said:@mathwonk Furthermore, why do you assume f(x+y) = f(x).f(y) for all reals x,y? Another interesting rule would be f(x+y) = f(x)/f(y). Then you get a whole new set of defntions for powers etc.
running_sum = 0
a_list = [a_1, a_2, a_3]
# k terms... 3 are shown here for the example
for a_i in a_list:
running_sum += a_i
print("done")
running_sum = 0
a_list = [a_1, a_2, a_3]
for a_i in a_list:
running_sum += -a_i
print("done")
running_product = 1
a_list = [a_1, a_2, a_3]
for a_i in a_list:
running_product *= a_i
print("done")
My bigger point, I suppose, is puzzles like these become non-issues if we start with the identity element and then iteratively apply the operation to it. (It also fixes some zero vs one indexing errors which is a bonus.)PeroK said:In this case, for example, you might write:
##2^0##
But, what does that mean? There's no immediate way to "multiply 2 by itself 0 times". Unlike ##2^1, 2^2, 2^3 \dots ##, which have a simple, clear definition.
@jbriggs444 No, you are wrong because division is not associative f( (a+b+c)+d ) = f(a) / { f(b).f(c).f(d) } <> f ( (a+b) + (c+d) ) = { f(a).f(d) } / { f(b).f(c) }.jbriggs444 said:So ##f(x) = \frac{f(x/2)}{f(x/2)} = 1## for all x. That does not sound very interesting.
You seem to have skipped a few steps. The definition in question does not involve multiplication at all. But let us ignore that.Rada Demorn said:@jbriggs444 No, you are wrong because division is not associative f( (a+b+c)+d ) = f(a) / { f(b).f(c).f(d) } <> f ( (a+b) + (c+d) ) = { f(a).f(d) } / { f(b).f(c) }.
No need to guess. It is equal to one.You may guess what happens if we try to evaluate f (1/n + ... + 1/n) with the aforementioned rule.
an/an = an-nRijad Hadzic said:I'm trying to prove that a^0 is = 1
Young physicist said:Well, with my proof, that n can be replaced by 4,5 or any natural number.
Ibix said:On the argument about definition versus proof, is part of the problem that there's only one sensible extension of ##a^n## from shorthand for "##n## ##a##s multiplied together" to the case of ##n\leq 0##? Several ways have been shown of doing it in this thread, but they all lead to the same result. Would a counter-example be trying to extend division (which already gives us a way into non-integer numbers starting from the integers) to cover the case of 0/0? You could argue it should be 1 because it's something divided by itself, or 0 because it's zero times something, or infinite because it's something divided by zero. There's no single definition consistent with all the rules, so we leave it undefined (note "undefined" not "unprovable" or something of that nature) and try to take limits on a case-by-case basis?
Too many question marks there, but am conscious that I'm outside my field here.
Ibix said:Too many question marks there, but am conscious that I'm outside my field here.
Try this...jbriggs444 said:You seem to have skipped a few steps. The definition in question does not involve multiplication at all. But let us ignore that.
Let a = x/2.
Let b = x/2
By definition f(x)=f(a+b)=f(a)f(b)f(x)=f(a+b)=f(a)f(b)f(x) = f(a+b) = \frac{f(a)}{f(b)}
But a=b so f(a) = f(b) and f(a)f(b)=1f(a)f(b)=1\frac{f(a)}{f(b)}=1
bhobba said:What I am about to say is not at the B level. So please B level people ignore it - it involves calculus.
For those still with me please read the Harvey Mudd notes I posted. Its basic simple calculus. There is no mystery like 0/0 or anything like that. Its simply you can rigorously define e^x for all real x. Its very basic really.
Normally this stuff is done before calculus so you must resort to definitions that make sense - but once you have the tool of calculus it falls out straight away. Pedagogically I prefer the calculus way - but either way is logically valid - its just I remember when I came across this stuff in the classroom I had the feeling of the first post - 'for some reason this does make sense to me but I have a feeling the result is not satisfying enough.'. That's all there is to it - some thinking students find the usual way not satisfying - me amongst them. I was fortunate in knowing calculus from self study - so it wasn't that 'unsatisfying' - but many do not have that tool yet. I am also suggesting maybe they should do them at the same time - hand-wavy calculus is not hard and much more satisfying than definitions. Just me - others it may not worry.
Thanks
Bill
Well, except zero.PeroK said:What about this, as a variation of your proof?
##1 = \frac{a^0}{a^0} = a^{0-0} = a^0##
What do you think of that?
Young physicist said:Well, except zero.
Well, we are trying to prove a0 = 1 ,right?PeroK said:Why?
Young physicist said:Well, we are trying to prove a0 = 1 ,right?
You can't use the result of a proof in the proof!
Just like you can't use the vocabulary itself in it's own definition.