Proving the Vector Triple Product Identity: A x (B x C) = (A x C)B - (A x B)C

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Karol
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around proving the vector triple product identity: A x (B x C) = (A x C)B - (A x B)C. Participants explore various approaches to manipulate the expression using index notation and the Levi-Civita symbol, focusing on the mathematical intricacies involved in the proof.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant attempts to prove the identity using the Levi-Civita symbol and expresses confusion about index handling and summation.
  • Another participant suggests that the first approach is confusing due to index usage and recommends renaming indices for clarity.
  • A different participant points out the importance of distinguishing between free and bound indices, indicating that the initial expression was incorrect due to this issue.
  • Some participants propose a brute-force method to explicitly write out the components of the expression, while others emphasize the need to correctly apply the contraction of epsilon tensors.
  • Several participants discuss the placement of summation signs and the implications of moving them, with some arguing that it is incorrect to have epsilon outside the summation.
  • Concerns are raised about the application of the formula for contracting epsilon tensors, with participants questioning how to correctly fill in indices on both sides of the equation.
  • One participant suggests working through a concrete example to clarify the application of the contraction formula.
  • Another participant encourages perseverance with index notation, highlighting its power once mastered.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the correct manipulation of indices and the application of the contraction formula. There is no consensus on the best approach to prove the identity, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations related to index handling, the distinction between free and bound indices, and the correct application of mathematical identities involving the Levi-Civita symbol. These issues contribute to the complexity of the proof.

Karol
Messages
1,380
Reaction score
22
I have to prove the above equation.
I tried:
$$\bigl[ A\times ( B\times C) \bigr]_i=\sum_{jk} \varepsilon_{ijk}A_j\biggl[ \sum_{ij}\varepsilon_{ijk}B_iC_j\biggr]$$
In order to reach the k'th member of (BxC) but i tested it with i=1 and saw that in the member:
$$\biggl[ \sum_{ij}\varepsilon_{ijk}B_iC_j\biggr]=\biggl[ \sum_{1j}B_1C_j\biggr]$$
And it can't be that B1 is inside the sum since it has to receive also other values.
Then i tried:
$$\bigl[ A\times ( B\times C) \bigr]_i=\sum_{jk} \varepsilon_{ijk}A_j\biggl[ \sum_{ij}\varepsilon_{ijk}B_iC_j\biggr]_k$$
But it doesn't enable me to open the [] brackets, or does it? i am new to this
 
Physics news on Phys.org
The first approach is confusing i and k.
The second approach is better, but you still have to rename indices to remove the brackets (j is used twice).
 
Karol said:
I have to prove the above equation.
I tried:
$$\bigl[ A\times ( B\times C) \bigr]_i=\sum_{jk} \varepsilon_{ijk}A_j\biggl[ \sum_{ij}\varepsilon_{ijk}B_iC_j\biggr]$$

You have to be careful about distinguishing between bound (or "dummy") indices and free indices. Your expression is wrong because on the left-hand side is a free index, i, but on the right-hand side, there is no free index.

I think that you would be better off just brute-forcing this. Just write out explicitly:

(A \times (B \times C))_1 = A_2 (B \times C)_3 - A_3 (B \times C)_2
(B \times C)_2 = B_3 C_1 - B_1 C_3
(B \times C)_3 = B_1 C_2 - B_2 C_1
 
$$\bigl[ A\times ( B\times C) \bigr]_i=\sum_{jk} \varepsilon_{ijk}A_j \sum_{lm}\varepsilon_{klm}B_lC_m=\sum_{jk} \varepsilon_{ijk}A_j \varepsilon_{klm}\sum_{lm}B_lC_m$$
I try i=1:
$$\bigl[ A\times ( B\times C) \bigr]_i=\varepsilon_{123}\varepsilon_{312}A_2 B_1 C_2$$
And i stopped substituting since i don't know if i am allowed to change the indices outside the second summation symbol. i now want to substitute l=2 and m=1 but ##\varepsilon_{klm}## is outside of ##\sum_{lm}\varepsilon_{klm}B_lC_m##, its:
$$...\varepsilon_{klm}\sum_{lm}B_lC_m$$
 
The second equation is not right. The component 1 is not a single term but a double sum.
By using the contraction of the epsilons you reduce these sums to two terms.
 
nasu said:
The second equation is not right. The component 1 is not a single term but a double sum.
By using the contraction of the epsilons you reduce these sums to two terms.
Yes, i know that it's not a single term, you didn't understand my question. i could complete the other terms:
$$\bigl[ A\times ( B\times C) \bigr]_i=\varepsilon_{123}\varepsilon_{312}A_2 B_1 C_2+\varepsilon_{132}\varepsilon_{213}A_3 B_1 C_3+\varepsilon_{123}\varepsilon_{321}A_2 B_2 C_1+\varepsilon_{132}\varepsilon_{231}A_3 B_3 C_1$$
The last 3 members have their l and m indices changed while they can be changed only inside the ##\sum_{lm}##, no? the member ##\varepsilon_{klm}## is outside the sum
 
Why is the epsilon klm outside the l-m sum? That's not right. Put the summation signs all the way to the left, then do what nasu says and collapse the epsilons into deltas using the formula in the link.
 
davidmoore63@y said:
Why is the epsilon klm outside the l-m sum? That's not right. Put the summation signs all the way to the left
$$\bigl[ A\times ( B\times C) \bigr]_i=\sum_{jk} \varepsilon_{ijk}A_j \sum_{lm}\varepsilon_{klm}B_lC_m=\sum_{jk}\sum_{lm} \varepsilon_{ijk} \varepsilon_{klm}A_jB_lC_m$$
davidmoore63@y said:
then do what nasu says and collapse the epsilons into deltas using the formula in the link.
In the link it says:
$$\sum_{k} \varepsilon_{ijk} \varepsilon_{klm}=\delta_{il}\delta_{jm}-\delta_{im}\delta_{jl}$$
But, for example, for i=l:
$$\sum_{k} \varepsilon_{ijk}\varepsilon_{imk}=\varepsilon_{ij1} \varepsilon_{im1}+\varepsilon_{ij2} \varepsilon_{im2}+\varepsilon_{ij3} \varepsilon_{im3}=$$
$$=\varepsilon_{321} \varepsilon_{231}+\varepsilon_{132} \varepsilon_{312}+\varepsilon_{213} \varepsilon_{123}=3$$
While the sum:
$$\delta_{il}\delta_{jm}-\delta_{im}\delta_{jl}$$
Can be at most ±1. i don't know to use this formula, how to fill in the indices on the right side, since they take the values 1,2,3. the left side is a summation while the right is?
 
  • #10
Karol said:
$$\bigl[ A\times ( B\times C) \bigr]_i=\sum_{jk} \varepsilon_{ijk}A_j \sum_{lm}\varepsilon_{klm}B_lC_m=\sum_{jk}\sum_{lm} \varepsilon_{ijk} \varepsilon_{klm}A_jB_lC_m$$

In the link it says:
$$\sum_{k} \varepsilon_{ijk} \varepsilon_{klm}=\delta_{il}\delta_{jm}-\delta_{im}\delta_{jl}$$
But, for example, for i=l:
$$\sum_{k} \varepsilon_{ijk}\varepsilon_{imk}=\varepsilon_{ij1} \varepsilon_{im1}+\varepsilon_{ij2} \varepsilon_{im2}+\varepsilon_{ij3} \varepsilon_{im3}=$$
$$=\varepsilon_{321} \varepsilon_{231}+\varepsilon_{132} \varepsilon_{312}+\varepsilon_{213} \varepsilon_{123}=3$$
While the sum:
$$\delta_{il}\delta_{jm}-\delta_{im}\delta_{jl}$$
Can be at most ±1. i don't know to use this formula, how to fill in the indices on the right side, since they take the values 1,2,3. the left side is a summation while the right is?

Could you please try working out a concrete example? You have:

\sum_{k} \varepsilon_{ijk}\varepsilon_{imk}=\varepsilon_{ij1} \varepsilon_{im1}+\varepsilon_{ij2} \varepsilon_{im2}+\varepsilon_{ij3} \varepsilon_{im3}

A particular example: i=3, j=2, m=2:

\sum_{k} \varepsilon_{32k}\varepsilon_{32k}=\varepsilon_{321} \varepsilon_{321}+\varepsilon_{322} \varepsilon_{322}+\varepsilon_{323} \varepsilon_{323}

That's equal to 1.
 
  • #11
When you have satisfied yourself that the formula is correct, the next step is to apply the delta symbols to the components in the following fashion (apologies no latex):

Sigma (m=1 to 3) Delta(j,m) A(m) = A(j)

It's worth persevering with this. Once mastered, the index notation is very powerful.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
6K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
Replies
14
Views
13K
Replies
2
Views
1K
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
8K