Scalar product and the Kronecker delta symbol

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the scalar product of vectors and the implications of the Kronecker delta symbol in the context of transformations between different coordinate systems. Participants explore the mathematical relationships involved in the scalar product, particularly focusing on the rotation of vectors and the properties of direction cosines.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a proof involving the scalar product of rotated vectors and the role of the Kronecker delta in expressing orthogonality.
  • Another participant asserts that the relation holds true regardless of which index is summed over, seeking clarification on the reasoning behind this assertion.
  • Concerns are raised about the interpretation of the summation involving direction cosines, with one participant questioning the meaning of multiplying direction cosines of the same line.
  • A later reply emphasizes that the relation must hold true regardless of the labeling of coordinate systems, suggesting that the completeness relation is universally applicable.
  • Another participant reiterates the previous point, asserting that the decomposition of the unprimed basis in the primed eigenvectors is meaningful.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of the mathematical expressions and their implications. There is no consensus on the meaning of certain summations or the validity of specific claims regarding the relationships between the direction cosines.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential ambiguities in the mathematical expressions, particularly regarding the roles of the indices in the summations and the interpretation of direction cosines in different contexts.

Karol
Messages
1,380
Reaction score
22
From a textbook. proof that the scalar product ##A\centerdot B## is a scalar:
Vectors A' and B' are formed by rotating vectors A and B:
$$A'_i=\sum_j \lambda_{ij} A_j,\; B'_i=\sum_j \lambda_{ij} B_j$$
$$A' \centerdot B'=\sum_i A'_i B'_i =\sum_i \left( \sum_j \lambda_{ij} A_j \right)\left( \sum_k \lambda_{ik} B_k \right)$$
$$=\sum_{i,k} \left( \sum_{i} \lambda_{ij} \lambda_{ik} \right) A_j B_k=\sum_{j} \left( \sum_{k} \delta_{jk} A_j B_k \right) $$
But:
$$\sum_j \lambda_{ij} \lambda_{kj} =\delta_{jk} $$
The order of the indexes in ##\sum_i \lambda_{ij} \lambda_{ik}## is inverse.
$$\lambda_{ij}=\cos(x'_i,x_j)$$
And, for example, for i=2:
$$\lambda^2_{21}+\lambda^2_{22}+\lambda^2_{23}=1$$
The identical index i=2 comes first, while in ##\sum_{i} \lambda_{ij} \lambda_{ik}## the (should be, or not to be) identical indexes j and k are second and the first index, i, changes.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
The relation is true regardless of whether the first or the second index is summed over.
 
Orodruin said:
The relation is true regardless of whether the first or the second index is summed over.
I know, but why?
When the second index is summed over the expression ##\lambda_{ij} \lambda_{kj}## makes sense, the 3 are the direction cosines of different, orthogonal, lines ##x'_i##:
$$\sum_j \lambda_{ij} \lambda_{kj}=\left\{ \begin{array}{l}
\cos^2(x'_1,x_1)+\cos^2(x'_1,x_2)+\cos^2(x'_1,x_3)=1 \\
\cos(x'_1,x_1)\cos(x'_2,x_1)+\cos(x'_1,x_2)\cos(x'_2,x_2)+\cos(x'_1,x_3)\cos(x'_2,x_3)=0 \\
\cos(x'_1,x_1)\cos(x'_3,x_1)+\cos(x'_1,x_2)\cos(x'_3,x_2)+\cos(x'_1,x_3)\cos(x'_3,x_3)=0 \\
\cos(x'_2,x_1)\cos(x'_1,x_1)+\cos(x'_2,x_2)\cos(x'_1,x_2)+\cos(x'_2,x_3)\cos(x'_1,x_3)=0 \\
\cos^2(x'_2,x_1)+\cos^2(x'_2,x_2)+\cos^2(x'_2,x_3)=1 \\
\cos(x'_2,x_1)\cos(x'_3,x_1)+\cos(x'_2,x_2)\cos(x'_3,x_2)+\cos(x'_2,x_3)\cos(x'_3,x_3)=0 \\
\cos(x'_3,x_1)\cos(x'_1,x_1)+\cos(x'_3,x_2)\cos(x'_1,x_2)+\cos(x'_3,x_3)\cos(x'_1,x_3)=0 \\
\cos(x'_3,x_1)\cos(x'_2,x_1)+\cos(x'_3,x_2)\cos(x'_2,x_2)+\cos(x'_3,x_3)\cos(x'_2,x_3)=0 \\
\cos^2(x'_3,x_1)+\cos^2(x'_3,x_2)+\cos^2(x'_3,x_3)=1
\end{array} \right.$$
But in ##\sum_i \lambda_{ij} \lambda_{ik}## the multiplication in each member is between the cosine direction of the same line, which doesn't have a meaning:
$$\sum_i \lambda_{ij} \lambda_{ik} =\left\{ \begin{array}{l}
\cos^2(x'_1,x_1)+\cos^2(x'_2,x_1)+\cos^2(x'_3,x_1)=? \\
\cos(x'_1,x_1)\cos(x'_1,x_2)+\cos(x'_2,x_1)\cos(x'_2,x_2)+\cos(x'_3,x_1)\cos(x'_3,x_2)=? \\
\cos(x'_1,x_1)\cos(x'_1,x_3)+\cos(x'_2,x_1)\cos(x'_2,x_3)+\cos(x'_3,x_1)\cos(x'_3,x_3)=? \\

\cos(x'_1,x_2)\cos(x'_1,x_1)+\cos(x'_2,x_2)\cos(x'_2,x_1)+\cos(x'_3,x_2)\cos(x'_3,x_1)=? \\
\cos^2(x'_1,x_2)+\cos^2(x'_2,x_2)+\cos^2(x'_3,x_2)=? \\
\cos(x'_1,x_2)\cos(x'_1,x_3)+\cos(x'_2,x_2)\cos(x'_2,x_3)+\cos(x'_3,x_2)\cos(x'_3,x_3)=? \\

\cos(x'_1,x_3)\cos(x'_1,x_1)+\cos(x'_2,x_3)\cos(x'_2,x_1)+\cos(x'_3,x_3)\cos(x'_3,x_1)=? \\
\cos(x'_1,x_3)\cos(x'_1,x_2)+\cos(x'_2,x_3)\cos(x'_2,x_2)+\cos(x'_3,x_3)\cos(x'_3,x_2)=? \\
\cos^2(x'_1,x_3)+\cos^2(x'_2,x_3)+\cos^2(x'_3,x_3)\cos(x'_3,x_1)=? \\

\end{array} \right.$$
This problem can be visualized. the multiplication in ##\sum_j \lambda_{ij} \lambda_{kj} =\delta_{jk}## is between 2 rows of the matrices while in ##\sum_i \lambda_{ij} \lambda_{ik}## the multiplication is between 2 columns.
 
Are you familiar with the fact that any matrix commutes with its inverse? In this case, the inverse is the transpose (which follows from the relation you are familiar with).

Naturally, this relation also follows from the fact that it does not matter which system you decided to call the primed system and which system you decided to call unprimed, the completeness relation must be true regardless.
Karol said:
which doesn't have a meaning:
This is wrong, it has a meaning. It is just the decomposition of the unprimed basis in the primed eigenvectors instead of vice versa!
 
Orodruin said:
This is wrong, it has a meaning. It is just the decomposition of the unprimed basis in the primed eigenvectors instead of vice versa!
Thanks Orodruin
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
12K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
12K