Psssst, hey, did you see what I did?

[Ivan Seeking]

A local merchant was telling me how proud he was that he had posted a Merry Christmas sign on the side of his building, along a busy street. He was quite proud of himself but was worried about the potential for legal backlash.

"I don't care what the government says!", he exclaimed. ~ "If I want to say 'Merry Christmas' instead of 'Happy Holidays', then I will [expletive expletive expletive].

Does anyone see the problem here?

 

[physics girl phd]

If it's not a government building then he's fine. Also, unless he owned the building, he might have wanted to check with his landlord, just for some good will there.

The biggest problem I see is that perhaps all the expletives are not quite in the spirit of his celebrated season especially if some of those expletives took his Lord's name in vain.

 

[Dembadon]

[...]

The biggest problem I see is that perhaps all the expletives are not quite in the spirit of his celebrated season especially if some of those expletives took his Lord's name in vain.

Bingo!

 

[humanino]

Does anyone see the problem here?

Yes. The problem is that you wrote "the problem". However, there are potentially several different problems depending on missing information and personal interpretation. It is also possible that there is really no problem, and your merchant is just being witty. So you should have asked "Does anyone see a problem ?".

Merry Christmas to you Ivan

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It is also possible that there is really no problem, and your merchant is just being witty. So you should have asked "Does anyone see a problem ?".

No, he was dead serious. In fact, when I explained that the law doesn't apply to him or any private party, he got mad.

When I said this only applies to schools and government facilities, he insisted that this is a country of majority rule, so that is unamerican. Then he went into a rant about foreigners.

Is it any wonder that I get so sick of this mentality?

It was tempting to wish him a happy Kwanzaa, but instead I departed with a "Merry Christmas".

 

[DBTS]

"Legitimate cause for civil disobedience - Acts 5:29"

That is not a legitimate cause for civil disobedience. His problem is that he is looking to disobey the government in anyway he can just to feel proud of himself, another wrong.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This is perhaps the strangest part of all. I am quite sure that he's not a Christian. At the least he's not a devout Christian. Whenever I walk in, he always has a dirty joke at the ready [and usually a disgusting one].

 

[humanino]

he went into a rant about foreigners.

Being a foreigner myself, I could only have agreed. Those foreigners are just lazy. Just wait until a foreigner opens a merchant shop in your town. In all likelihood, the shop will be less expensive and open longer hours. Then you will have to put up with foreigner's jokes.

This being said, the only way I put up with it when I was back in my small town is that I knew it was temporary, they were old and I could not help them anyway.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Being a foreigner myself, I could only have agreed. Those foreigners are just lazy. Just wait until a foreigner opens a merchant shop in your town. In all likelihood, the shop will be less expensive and open longer hours. Then you will have to put up with foreigner's jokes.

This being said, the only way I put up with it when I was back in my small town is that I knew it was temporary, they were old and I could not help them anyway.

One guess what he has on the TV all day.

To me, this is a classic example of misplaced anger. What I find time and time again is that much of the anger out there, esp on the right, is based on misinformation. On the left, the anger seems to be driven more by unreasonable and idealistic expectations.

 

[DBTS]

What about the anger of the independent?

 

[Dembadon]

What about the anger of the independent?

Anger? Nah, I'd say they're indifferent.

 

[Alex_Sanders]

Yea I see a problem, "his building"? So presumably he is quite successful then, then how come he would be Christian enough to flaunt his religiosity?

I ain't never see one devout businessman in my life, not even those church goers. Chances are, he want to bring heat on himself, make one case or two, if he's lucky enough, he got certain ACLU wannabes chasing after his ***, and cha ching! Free publicity. At least 40% of US population are fundies, yo know...

 

[NobodySpecial]

Happens every year the tabloids run some made up story about some local council banning nativity scenes or saying merry christmas.

The classic case is 'winterval' - a UK council tried to drag the christmas buying season out for a couple more months by leaving up all the lights and decorations and calling it winterval.

This was a chamber of commerce idea but of course became tabloid shorthand for crazy commie/muslim/gay local council bans something any right-thinking tabloid reader should support

 

[mugaliens]

A local merchant was telling me how proud he was that he had posted a Merry Christmas sign on the side of his building, along a busy street. He was quite proud of himself but was worried about the potential for legal backlash.

"I don't care what the government says!", he exclaimed. ~ "If I want to say 'Merry Christmas' instead of 'Happy Holidays', then I will [expletive expletive expletive].

Does anyone see the problem here?

To gain a better understanding of this concept, I'd avoid Wikipedia and most commentaries on this, as almost all seem to reflect an agenda opposite to that of Jefferson's letter.

Instead, I would recommend you read copies of the letters themselves, beginning with the http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/dba_jefferson.html" (from the Library of Congress).

Having read both letters, my take on the problem in Ivan's scenario is that the shopkeeper errantly believes the government has any legal authority over any religious symbols he chooses to display in, on, or outside his store (so long as it's on his property).

The greater problem is that First Amendment rights are seriously misunderstood by most these days, as is the "separation of church and state" myth. I use the term "myth" as Jefferson's letter of reassurance to the Danbury Baptist Church was never meant to limit any expression religious belief, but to reassure them that the government will keep it's nose out of religious business altogether.

Key to this is our First Amendment's "nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof." This is the part which all branches of our local, state, and federal governments usually ignore in their attempts at limit any religious display. By attempting to limit religious displays, they're actions are 180 degrees in the opposite direction of the principle which Jefferson established in his letter to the Danbury Baptist Church.

ETA: Upon reading your other entries, Ivan, I see the problem you do, in that the shopkeeper has a bone to pick, even after it's been made aware there's no bone. Sadly, I've seen bodies of people, even entire countries, and certainly message forums, fall prey to this rather odd human quirk. I'm sure it has its roots somewhere in our evoluntary history, perhaps in a group's version of "once-bitten, twice shy" and as a means of ensuring that the group err on the side of eliminating all who might undermine the group in some way, even if it means eliminating many who're merely insightful or different.

 

[DaveC426913]

...my take on the problem in Ivan's scenario is that the shopkeeper errantly believes the government has any legal authority over any religious symbols he chooses to display in, on, or outside his store (so long as it's on his property).

This was my take too.

The only problem I could see is that the shopkeeper seemed to erroneously think the government was forbidding him from putting up a holiday sign.

But does he really think that, or is he simply venting his annoyance about places where the government is restricting public displays? We'll never know.

 

[drizzle]

Yeah, I see the problem. Wish the merchant a Merry Christmas for me Ivan.

 

[NobodySpecial]

The greater problem is that First Amendment rights are seriously misunderstood by most these days, as is the "separation of church and state" myth. I use the term "myth" as Jefferson's letter of reassurance to the Danbury Baptist Church was never meant to limit any expression religious belief, but to reassure them that the government will keep it's nose out of religious business altogether.

Funnily enough it was the puritans who originally banned Christmas during Cromwell's reign in the 1650s.
Eventually somebody had the bright idea of packing them all off to some useless land over the ocean where they couldn't do any harm.

I wonder what happened to that ?