Q: Exploring Metaphysics and Quantum Mechanics

[Erwins_mat]

Models and measurements.

In which case you are talking about a purely instrumentalist version of science which seeks correspondence between scientific models and measurements of phenomenal, experiential "material" objects. That's all very well, but it isn't telling us anything about noumena. It isn't telling us about what is the source of our experiences.

Let's say I'm a young Earth creationist. I claim that an intelligent God created the world in six days by fiat, and did so in a way which makes the Earth look very old. All of our empirical evidence and measurements are compatible with such a theory - it is empirically adequate. Does this correspondence make it true?

For me "truth", in a correspondence sense, would have to mean "accurate correspondence between a model and noumenal reality, not phenomenal reality. If it merely corresponds with phenomenal reality then it is a relative truth (relative to the world as we experience it) not an absolute truth.

 

[apeiron]

If it merely corresponds with phenomenal reality then it is a relative truth (relative to the world as we experience it) not an absolute truth.

Of course, what more did you expect?

 

[Erwins_mat]

Of course, what more did you expect?

Much more, if somebody wants me to start talking about "Truth". I said I had to be satisfied with verisimilitude or relative truths, and that means knowledge of noumena, not merely the ability to predict what I am likely to observe in the future.

It boils down to a question about science: does it deliver "truth" about "real things" or is it merely a useful set of tools for making predictions about experiences?

 

[yoda jedi]

Much more, if somebody wants me to start talking about "Truth". I said I had to be satisfied with verisimilitude or relative truths, and that means knowledge of noumena, not merely the ability to predict what I am likely to observe in the future.

It boils down to a question about science: does it deliver "truth" about "real things" or is it merely a useful set of tools for making predictions about experiences?

you are confusing truth with "transcendental".

 

[Erwins_mat]

Can we go off on a tangent?

If you have 100 uranium-235 atoms and all of them decay in ten minutes then something very strange may have happened, but it does it count as a breach of the laws of physics?

Can't a believer in the MWI simply state that improbable events of this sort inevitably happen somewhere in the multiverse and that we just happened to end up in one of these improbable branches?

It's a sort of reverse-anthropic theory. We had an overwhelming probability of not ending up in such a universe, but somebody had to so it might just as well be us.

 

[apeiron]

It boils down to a question about science: does it deliver "truth" about "real things" or is it merely a useful set of tools for making predictions about experiences?

It boils down to a question about epistemology. What else could a mind do except model?

Philosophy and maths are both modelling. Consciousness is modelling. As yoda jedi says, dreaming of Platonic truth, the triumph of pure reason, is transcendental foolishness. That dream had its last gasp with Russell and Whitehead. Godel dealt the final blow.

Consciousness is a useful tool (or rather brain process) for making predictions about experience. That is why the best description of life and mind is "anticipatory system".

"Anticipatory Systems; Philosophical, Mathematical, and Methodolical Foundations", Rosen Enterprises; 2003

Science is a formalisation of what minds do - predict and test, then update the model to reduce future prediction error.

http://www.people.vcu.edu/~mikuleck/rsntpe.html

JR: This is one of the more controversial ramifications of your research, isn't it? That physics is a limited science...

RR: That's right. Especially physicists don't like that. But it's unfortunate that most systems are more like organisms than they are like machines-- simple systems.

JR: And the way they are more like organisms is that they are "complex"...

RR: Exactly. They are complex, and as such they have properties with anticipation, they have properties from emergence and many other kinds of similar things arising from their very nature and they cannot be understood comprehensively the way a physicist likes to understand a rock or a grain of sand.

 

[Erwins_mat]

Consciousness is a useful tool (or rather brain process) for making predictions about experience.

To me, this is meaningless gobbledegook.

 

[apeiron]

To me, this is meaningless gobbledegook.

Yes, it helps to have studied the subject in question.

 

[baywax]

Hello EM,

Just an interjection here concerning the definition of "metaphysics"?!¿

My experience has been that many metaphysicians herald "energy" as the evidence of their topic... yet energy is a physical property. As far as I know metaphysics describes nothing we could ever conceive of since we are physical beings. So, the word metaphysics, to me, means nothing. Is there a way that you can clarify this term for me in your own words?

 

[Erwins_mat]

Yes, it helps to have studied the subject in question.

I have, apeiron. That's why I recognise it as meaningless gobbledegook. You are using words to which you have assigned no meaning. The result is nonsense. You are welcome argue from your own authority until the cow's come home.

What did you study? I'm guessing it wasn't philosophy.

 

[Erwins_mat]

Hello EM,

Just an interjection here concerning the definition of "metaphysics"?!¿

My experience has been that many metaphysicians herald "energy" as the evidence of their topic... yet energy is a physical property. As far as I know metaphysics describes nothing we could ever conceive of since we are physical beings. So, the word metaphysics, to me, means nothing. Is there a way that you can clarify this term for me in your own words?

Hello baywax.

"Metaphysics" is sometimes taken to mean "new-age woo woo" or something similar. It is also the name of a branch of philosophy. "Energy" is a term which predates science, and which has a non-scientific meaning of "the ability of a system to do work." Science adopted the term to mean something very specific in terms of material systems - it became "the ability of a physical system to do work." As used by your average new-age woo-woo, "energy" means more like the original term. Some may mean exactly what physicists mean, in which case they are making incorrect, pseudoscientific statements. I suspect most mean something more like "the ability of a metaphysical system to do work", in which case the claim is not pseudoscientific and not necessarily wrong, although rather unsupported to say the least.

I would define metaphysics as being anything which needs to make a distinction between the world as we observe it and the world as it exists in itself, independent of our observations of it. Physics has no need of this distinction and cannot do anything with it. Metaphysics starts with it, or at least it did after Kant.

Schroedinger's cat is a perfect example. Cats are unambiguously material things, but a combination of the copenhagen interpretation of QM and Schroedinger's thought experiment leads to the cat in the box being a noumenal cat - it is inherently unobservable. It becomes a phenomenal cat when the box is opened. Science can't resolve the status of the cat, because it is, by definition, unobservable.

 

[apeiron]

What did you study? I'm guessing it wasn't philosophy.

That was one of the things certainly.

 

[Pythagorean]

Hello baywax.

"Metaphysics" is sometimes taken to mean "new-age woo woo" or something similar. It is also the name of a branch of philosophy. "Energy" is a term which predates science, and which has a non-scientific meaning of "the ability of a system to do work." Science adopted the term to mean something very specific in terms of material systems - it became "the ability of a physical system to do work." As used by your average new-age woo-woo, "energy" means more like the original term. Some may mean exactly what physicists mean, in which case they are making incorrect, pseudoscientific statements. I suspect most mean something more like "the ability of a metaphysical system to do work", in which case the claim is not pseudoscientific and not necessarily wrong, although rather unsupported to say the least.

I would define metaphysics as being anything which needs to make a distinction between the world as we observe it and the world as it exists in itself, independent of our observations of it. Physics has no need of this distinction and cannot do anything with it. Metaphysics starts with it, or at least it did after Kant.

Schroedinger's cat is a perfect example. Cats are unambiguously material things, but a combination of the copenhagen interpretation of QM and Schroedinger's thought experiment leads to the cat in the box being a noumenal cat - it is inherently unobservable. It becomes a phenomenal cat when the box is opened. Science can't resolve the status of the cat, because it is, by definition, unobservable.

Actually, physics does have a need for it. It's pretty much the basis for falsifiability. I suppose that's where metaphysics takes over? The ufalsifiable?

 

[Erwins_mat]

Actually, physics does have a need for it. It's pretty much the basis for falsifiability. I suppose that's where metaphysics takes over? The ufalsifiable?

It is related to falsifiability, but only indirectly. Popper's conception of science as only dealing with falsifiable claims was in part a response to Hume's problem of induction, which in turn is set up by the non-observability of "reality as it is in itself."

Some metaphysical claims are falsifiable. These are explanations of material phenomena which had been dumped on metaphysics before science got going. So science ended up falsifying the metaphysical explanation that God is required as a designer of living things. But there are two sides to this. The power of science is directly related to its dependence on observation, and this makes it impossible for it to offer explanations involving metaphysics. That which gives power to science also limits it.

 

[baywax]

Hello baywax.

"Metaphysics" is sometimes taken to mean "new-age woo woo" or something similar. It is also the name of a branch of philosophy. "Energy" is a term which predates science, and which has a non-scientific meaning of "the ability of a system to do work." Science adopted the term to mean something very specific in terms of material systems - it became "the ability of a physical system to do work." As used by your average new-age woo-woo, "energy" means more like the original term. Some may mean exactly what physicists mean, in which case they are making incorrect, pseudoscientific statements. I suspect most mean something more like "the ability of a metaphysical system to do work", in which case the claim is not pseudoscientific and not necessarily wrong, although rather unsupported to say the least.

I would define metaphysics as being anything which needs to make a distinction between the world as we observe it and the world as it exists in itself, independent of our observations of it. Physics has no need of this distinction and cannot do anything with it. Metaphysics starts with it, or at least it did after Kant.

Schroedinger's cat is a perfect example. Cats are unambiguously material things, but a combination of the copenhagen interpretation of QM and Schroedinger's thought experiment leads to the cat in the box being a noumenal cat - it is inherently unobservable. It becomes a phenomenal cat when the box is opened. Science can't resolve the status of the cat, because it is, by definition, unobservable.

I'd have to beg to differ with regard to a "noumenal cat" being unobservable. In actuality we do observe the noumenal cat by observing the neuronal activity producing the concept/ via FMRI and other means.

I would define metaphysics as being anything which needs to make a distinction between the world as we observe it and the world as it exists in itself, independent of our observations of it.

Sorry but this sounds as though you're saying metaphysics has developed a way to observe without observing?

My main point is that there is a huge trap when it comes to metaphysics because it is the study of an unobservable phenomenon. Because of this there is no way to verify the claims of authors and professors of the metaphysical ilk. The ruminations and hallucinations of one person can often take on an air of authority concerning the "unphysical" or "beyond" physical and this can wrongly affect large numbers of people.

 

[Erwins_mat]

I'
Sorry but this sounds as though you're saying metaphysics has developed a way to observe without observing?

I hope not.

My main point is that there is a huge trap when it comes to metaphysics because it is the study of an unobservable phenomenon. Because of this there is no way to verify the claims of authors and professors of the metaphysical ilk. The ruminations and hallucinations of one person can often take on an air of authority concerning the "unphysical" or "beyond" physical and this can wrongly affect large numbers of people.

Wrongly in what way?

 

[baywax]

I hope not.



Wrongly in what way?

Like convincing many to try the (arsenic laced) Koolaid to see what the leader sees. Or, lay in bed and shoot your brains out because a metaphysical being has told us all to hook a ride on a comet.

Etcetera...

Generally I feel the same way about most dogmatic religion. It steers the individual away from a physical reality that ultimately determines their health and welfare.

Furthermore, the fact that the word "energy" was around before it was closely studied and categorized along with many other phenomena... does not make it any more than it is. The word "light" was around long before it was quantified into photons and used to make electricity. But it always had those capabilities and those physical properties that it does today.

Romanticizing the elements does not make them metaphysical or make them the result of a metaphysical "force". One really has to work on faith to imagine something causing the existence of the physical universe other than the physical universe itself. Faith is one way of observing without observing...

 

[Erwins_mat]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretation_of_quantum_mechanics#Comparison

The most common interpretations are summarized in the table below. The values shown in the cells of the table are not without controversy, for the precise meanings of some of the concepts involved are unclear and, in fact, are themselves at the center of the controversy surrounding the given interpretation.

No experimental evidence exists that distinguishes among these interpretations. To that extent, the physical theory stands, and is consistent with itself and with reality; difficulties arise only when one attempts to "interpret" the theory. Nevertheless, designing experiments which would test the various interpretations is the subject of active research.

I'm not sure I understand this.

Nearly a century has passed since quantum theory first started getting "interpreted", and we have something like 20 different metaphysical interpretations. There is currently no means of telling them with an empirical test. I don't understand how any empirical test could ever tell us which one is right. How could the MWI ever be falsified?

 

[ArjenDijksman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretation_of_quantum_mechanics#Comparison
Nearly a century has passed since quantum theory first started getting "interpreted", and we have something like 20 different metaphysical interpretations. There is currently no means of telling them with an empirical test. I don't understand how any empirical test could ever tell us which one is right. How could the MWI ever be falsified?

Hello Erwins_mat,

I think that's why we should focus on interpretations that may be tested experimentally. MWI clearly can't be tested experimentally because there'a whole tail which is experimentally unaccessible. There are however models that we could scale up macroscopically and test against quantum predictions. I'm thinking of particle embedding pilot-waves which show quantum behaviour:

• http://www.physorg.com/news78650511.html"
• http://prl.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v102/i24/e240401"

Arjen

 

[Erwins_mat]

Hello Erwins_mat,

I think that's why we should focus on interpretations that may be tested experimentally. MWI clearly can't be tested experimentally because there'a whole tail which is experimentally unaccessible. There are however models that we could scale up macroscopically and test against quantum predictions. I'm thinking of particle embedding pilot-waves which show quantum behaviour:

• http://www.physorg.com/news78650511.html"
• http://prl.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v102/i24/e240401"

Arjen

Thankyou, I will investigate...

 

[Tao-Fu]

Hello Erwins_mat,

I think that's why we should focus on interpretations that may be tested experimentally. MWI clearly can't be tested experimentally because there'a whole tail which is experimentally unaccessible. There are however models that we could scale up macroscopically and test against quantum predictions. I'm thinking of particle embedding pilot-waves which show quantum behaviour:

• http://www.physorg.com/news78650511.html"
• http://prl.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v102/i24/e240401"

Arjen

How do either of those links point a way to differentiate different interpretations of QM? I'm not seeing it.

 

[ArjenDijksman]

How do either of those links point a way to differentiate different interpretations of QM? I'm not seeing it.

The results of the experiments described at those links simulate quantum tunneling and quantum interference (as well as other features like orbiting particles with discrete orbitals...). They provide a way to investigate pilot-waves at macroscopic level and therefore to test the consistency of different pilot-wave interpretations of QM. As a matter of fact, they teach us that there's a two-way action between the pilot-wave and the particle, which is a feature that one doesn't find in the conventional Bohmian interpretations.

 

[ZapperZ]

The results of the experiments described at those links simulate quantum tunneling and quantum interference (as well as other features like orbiting particles with discrete orbitals...). They provide a way to investigate pilot-waves at macroscopic level and therefore to test the consistency of different pilot-wave interpretations of QM. As a matter of fact, they teach us that there's a two-way action between the pilot-wave and the particle, which is a feature that one doesn't find in the conventional Bohmian interpretations.

Er.. this is strange.

These experiments merely MIMIC the QM results. They are not QM experiments!

Furthermore, in those experiments, you can DETECT the associated waves that the "walker" is on. Would you like to guess whether we can detect the analogous "associated waves" in the pilot wave formulation?

Zz.

 

[ArjenDijksman]

These experiments merely MIMIC the QM results. They are not QM experiments!

Yes, exactly. That's what I would require for an interpretation: a formulation that reproduces the results of QM experiments.

Furthermore, in those experiments, you can DETECT the associated waves that the "walker" is on. Would you like to guess whether we can detect the analogous "associated waves" in the pilot wave formulation?

One way to detect the associated waves is through investigation of the spots whereto the "walker" is guided. This concurs with the way how de Broglie conceived the pilot wave interpretation.

 

[ZapperZ]

Yes, exactly. That's what I would require for an interpretation: a formulation that reproduces the results of QM experiments.

So you don't see that the fact that these are not QM experiments make any difference? I can mimic many Standard Model physics using various condensed matter systems. I can even show Higgs-like mechanism! If we use your logic, there is no need to build the LHC to find the Higgs, since we have already seen a resemblance of it elsewhere. Does this makes any sense to you?

One way to detect the associated waves is through investigation of the spots whereto the "walker" is guided. This concurs with the way how de Broglie conceived the pilot wave interpretation.

No, you missed the point. If we can detect the "associated waves" that came with the pilot wave formulation, we won't be having this conversation. Just looking at where the walker is doesn't tell you anything to distinguish between one interpretation versus another. That's why QM interpretation is still a matter of tastes and personal preference!

Zz.

 

[apeiron]

As a matter of fact, they teach us that there's a two-way action between the pilot-wave and the particle, which is a feature that one doesn't find in the conventional Bohmian interpretations.

Thanks for pointing to such an interesting analogue.

Do you see this fitting in also with a transactional interpretation where there is a "both ways" action?

The droplet/walker is a resonance effect of a system. Inject energy at a locale and (over sufficient time) you produce a standing wave that reflects the global boundary conditions (the shape of the containing vessel, the "diffraction grating" on the bottom).

In QM, the interpretive mistake seems to be to try to find some way to preserve strict locality of causality. Point A in spacetime must connect to point B as a simple path in spacetime - and that is all there is.

Non-locality is really about the global scale in the droplet experiment. The fact that it takes "time" for global downward constraint to be expressed, for a pilot wave-like situation to develop.

In the classical analogue, it actually does take time for a standing wave resonance to build. A clock ticks off locally. But in QM, the "when" becomes a global issue. The local ticking clock to measure, say, the exchange of a photon across a space, is what emerges.

At the global level, this is why the action seems as much retrocausal as causal. The wholeness of the standing wave has to emerge along with the wobbly path traced by a droplet, in effect.

 

[ArjenDijksman]

So you don't see that the fact that these are not QM experiments make any difference?

Oh yes, there is a big difference between QM interpretations (a formulation using math, language, analogues, logic...) and the actual QM behavior. Like you stated it, these walker droplet experiments only mimic some aspects of QM experiments.

I can mimic many Standard Model physics using various condensed matter systems. I can even show Higgs-like mechanism! If we use your logic, there is no need to build the LHC to find the Higgs, since we have already seen a resemblance of it elsewhere. Does this makes any sense to you?

I don't understand what you mean by "my logic" because I don't agree with the inferences you make concerning my line of thought. We need the LHC to validate or invalidate our different interpretations. Meanwhile, nothing prevents us from developing these interpretations along different lines.

No, you missed the point. If we can detect the "associated waves" that came with the pilot wave formulation, we won't be having this conversation. Just looking at where the walker is doesn't tell you anything to distinguish between one interpretation versus another. That's why QM interpretation is still a matter of tastes and personal preference!

Yes, I agree. That's why it is also important to discuss interpretations and to approach them in different ways. With regard to pilot wave interpretations, there's a whole aspect that hasn't be discussed in the past 80 what years: their connexion with pilot wave experiments on another scale.

Thanks for pointing to such an interesting analogue.

Do you see this fitting in also with a transactional interpretation where there is a "both ways" action?

Yes, why not. Any wave interpretation of QM could benefit from our understanding of ordinary wave behavior.

...
At the global level, this is why the action seems as much retrocausal as causal. The wholeness of the standing wave has to emerge along with the wobbly path traced by a droplet, in effect.

I agree. The global scale of quantum interactions is well illustrated by the extended wave of the droplet analogy.

 

[ZapperZ]

Oh yes, there is a big difference between QM interpretations (a formulation using math, language, analogues, logic...) and the actual QM behavior. Like you stated it, these walker droplet experiments only mimic some aspects of QM experiments.

And I don't see why you are so gung-ho on these experiments. They are not QM experiments. They are classical experiments that HAPPENED to reproduce some aspect of QM observation. What's the big deal?

I don't understand what you mean by "my logic" because I don't agree with the inferences you make concerning my line of thought. We need the LHC to validate or invalidate our different interpretations. Meanwhile, nothing prevents us from developing these interpretations along different lines.

First of all, none of these experiments are validating "interpretations", and certainly NOT the LHC!

Secondly, if your experiment is nothing more than something that mimics something else, you can't directly test that "something else". This is because that something else has a bunch of other effects that your first experiment cannot replicate. And in QM, everything is connected to each other - you simply can't turn something off while testing something else. You can't test superposition without acknowledging (and testing) the fact that you can also detect the presence of superposition via measuring a non-commuting observable! Try using these experiments that you are such a fan of and produce something similar to the coherence gap observed in the Delft/Stony Brook SQUID experiments!

These are NOT QM experiments. Period. You have no ability to construct a Hamiltonian that is identical to a QM Hamiltonian. The starting point is all wrong, and one is only deceiving oneself to think that one can test "interpretations" of QM using these experiments.

Zz.

 

[Erwins_mat]

These are NOT QM experiments. Period. You have no ability to construct a Hamiltonian that is identical to a QM Hamiltonian. The starting point is all wrong, and one is only deceiving oneself to think that one can test "interpretations" of QM using these experiments.

Zz.

Thanks for the input, Zapperz. This makes more sense to me. From my perspective, as a neo-Kantian of sorts, it looks completely obvious that the metaphysical interpretations of QM are not science and never can be. We are stuck making observations of, and predictions about, the phenomenal, material world. The interpretations of QM are an attempt to link that phenomenal, material world with a noumenal world. For me, that's metaphysics. The position you end up defending isn't based on empirical evidence but on the need for consistency with other non-scientific beliefs such as "I am a conscious observer", "I believe I have free will" or with other principles like the need for parsimony or a desire to defend metaphysical naturalism.

 

[ZapperZ]

Thanks for the input, Zapperz. This makes more sense to me. From my perspective, as a neo-Kantian of sorts, it looks completely obvious that the metaphysical interpretations of QM are not science and never can be. We are stuck making observations of, and predictions about, the phenomenal, material world. The interpretations of QM are an attempt to link that phenomenal, material world with a noumenal world. For me, that's metaphysics. The position you end up defending isn't based on empirical evidence but on the need for consistency with other non-scientific beliefs such as "I am a conscious observer", "I believe I have free will" or with other principles like the need for parsimony or a desire to defend metaphysical naturalism.

This is true. However, having said that, we should also learn a little bit from history. This is because human ingenuity can sometime surprise us, and what we think can't be tested, later on proved to be wrong.

For example, after the EPR paradox was formulated, the argument on whether it is true or not dragged on for years. It was considered to simply be a "philosophical argument", where various camps adopt a certain specific view or interpretation based on a matter of "tastes". This was because at that time, it was difficult to imagine the possibility of testing such non-local effect.

That all changed after Bell proposed a way to make such a test. This is now no longer philosophy, but physics. The validity of the effect is no longer a matter of "tastes". The interpretation of the effect may still be up in the air, but the result isn't.

I'm not saying that we can differentiate between all of these interpretations eventually. That would be an a priori assumption that the current, standard interpretation of QM is incorrect or incomplete, and we have seen many instances where philosophical arguments never get resolved by physics. All I'm pointing out is that there have been instances where human ingenuity have managed to test something where it wasn't thought to be possible before.

Still, I don't think these experiments based on the "walkers" are such tests.

Zz.