Quadratic Polynomials and Irreducibles and Primes ....

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the proof of Theorem 1.2.2 from "Introductory Algebraic Number Theory" by Saban Alaca and Kenneth S. Williams, focusing on quadratic polynomials, irreducibility, and the conditions under which certain factorizations hold in integral domains. Participants seek clarification on the implications of specific statements within the theorem and the transitions between polynomial rings.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Peter expresses confusion regarding the argument that leads to the conclusion that the polynomial ##f(X)## does not factor into linear factors in ##D[X]##, particularly the significance of the statement "neither ##a/p## nor ##b/p## is in ##D##".
  • Some participants propose that if ##f(X) = p(X - a/p)(X - b/p)## in ##F[X]##, then it must follow that ##d^{-1} t = a/p## or ##d^{-1} t = b/p## in the field ##F##, but these cannot be solutions in ##D##.
  • One participant notes that the factorization assumption leads to a contradiction where both ##d^{-1}t \in D## and ##d^{-1}t \notin D##, suggesting that ##f(X)## does not split over ##D##.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the polynomial ##f(x)## must be in ##D[x]## because all coefficients are in ##D##, and the conditions of the theorem apply to all quadratic polynomials in ##D[x]##.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of the irreducibility of ##p## and how it relates to the properties of the polynomial and its factorization.
  • Peter seeks further clarification on how to demonstrate that ##d^{-1}t \notin D## and questions the argument regarding ##a/p## being in ##D##.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various interpretations of the theorem and its implications, indicating that multiple competing views remain. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the specific arguments or conclusions drawn from the theorem.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the proof involves complex reasoning with multiple steps that may not be straightforward, leading to potential misunderstandings about the relationships between the elements in the polynomial factorizations and the properties of the integral domain.

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I am reading "Introductory Algebraic Number Theory"by Saban Alaca and Kenneth S. Williams ... and am currently focused on Chapter 1: Integral Domains ...

I need some help with the proof of Theorem 1.2.2 ...

Theorem 1.2.2 reads as follows:
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?temp_hash=bf44d3fe3806f5b5360d520962884fa0.png

In the above text from Alaca and Williams, we read the following:

"... ... Then the roots of ##f(X)## in ##F## are ##-ds/p## and ##-d^{-1} t ##. But ##d^{-1} t \in D## while neither ##a/p## nor ##b/p## is in ##D##. Thus no such factorization exists. ...I am unsure of how this argument leads to the conclusion that ##f(X)## does not factor into linear factors in ##D[X]## ... ... in other words how does the argument that " ... ##d^{-1} t \in D## while neither ##a/p## nor ##b/p## is in ##D## ... " lead to the conclusion that no such factorization exists. ...

Indeed ... in particular ... how does the statement "neither ##a/p## nor ## b/p## is in ##D##" have meaning in the assumed factorization ##f(X) = (cX + s) ( dX + t )## ... ... ? ... What is the exact point being made about the assumed factorization ... ?
I am also a little unsure of what is going on when Alaca and Williams change or swap between ##D[X]## and ##F[X]## ...Can someone help with an explanation ...

Help will be appreciated ...

Peter
 

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Last edited:
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We have ##0=f(-d^{-1}t)=p(-d^{-1}t-a/p)(-d^{-1}t-b/p)## in the field ##F##. What does this mean for the factors?
 
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fresh_42 said:
We have ##0=f(-d^{-1}t)=p(-d^{-1}t-a/p)(-d^{-1}t-b/p)## in the field ##F##. What does this mean for the factors?
Hi fresh_42...

It seems that if we consider the polynomial ##f(X) = fp (X - a/p) (X - b/p)## in ##F[X]##

then we must have that ##d^{-1} t = a/p## or ##d^{-1} t = b/p## in the field ##F## ...

But these cannot be solutions in ##D## ...

But how do I relate this to the factorization ##f(X) = (cX + s) ( dX + t )## in ##D[X]## ... ... ?

PeterEDIT ... oh ... the ##d^{-1} t## comes from ##f(X) = (cX + s) ( dX + t )## ! Maybe what I have said then means there is no factorization of the form ##f(X) = (cX + s) ( dX + t )## .
 
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##f(x)=p(x-\frac{a}{p})(x-\frac{b}{p}) \in F[x]## is simply set. It's a polynomial that is chosen on purpose. Since the condition (1.2.3) applies to all quadratic polynomials in ##D[x]##, it also applies to ##f(x)=px^2-(a+b)x+\frac{ab}{p} \in D[x]##. ##f(x)## is in ##D[x]## because ##p,a,b,r=\frac{ab}{p}## are all in ##D##.

The factorization ##f(x)=(cx+s)(dx+t)## in ##D[x]## is the assumption we want to show cannot hold. It leads to ##d^{-1}t \in D \;\wedge \; d^{-1}t \notin D## which is obviously false. Thus ##f(x)## doesn't split over ##D##. But according to condition (1.2.3) it has to split over ##D##. Therefore ##f(x)## cannot be in ##D[x]##. But the only way, that ##f(x) \notin D[x]## is by ##r \notin D##. But then ##p \nmid (ab)##, which means ##p## isn't irreducible and non-prime. Since ##p## is chosen irreducible, it has to conflict the other property, being non-prime, which was our first assumption. But non-non-prime means ##p## is prime, what had to be shown.

There's a lot of rollback in this proof. If it were a source code, I would insist on at least a three-level indent:
1. ##p## is not prime.
##\Longrightarrow r \in D##
2. ##f(x)## splits over ##D##
##\Longrightarrow \textrm{ w.l.o.g. } d^{-1}t \in D##
3. w.l.o.g. ##a/p \in D##
contradiction​
##\Longrightarrow d^{-1}t \notin D##
##\Longrightarrow f(x)## doesn't split over ##D## // <-1 indent>
##\Longrightarrow r \notin D## // <-2 indent>
##\Longrightarrow p## not not prime // <-3 indent>
##\Longrightarrow p## prime // <-3 indent>
 
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fresh_42 said:
##f(x)=p(x-\frac{a}{p})(x-\frac{b}{p}) \in F[x]## is simply set. It's a polynomial that is chosen on purpose. Since the condition (1.2.3) applies to all quadratic polynomials in ##D[x]##, it also applies to ##f(x)=px^2-(a+b)x+\frac{ab}{p} \in D[x]##. ##f(x)## is in ##D[x]## because ##p,a,b,r=\frac{ab}{p}## are all in ##D##.

The factorization ##f(x)=(cx+s)(dx+t)## in ##D[x]## is the assumption we want to show cannot hold. It leads to ##d^{-1}t \in D \;\wedge \; d^{-1}t \notin D## which is obviously false. Thus ##f(x)## doesn't split over ##D##. But according to condition (1.2.3) it has to split over ##D##. Therefore ##f(x)## cannot be in ##D[x]##. But the only way, that ##f(x) \notin D[x]## is by ##r \notin D##. But then ##p \nmid (ab)##, which means ##p## isn't irreducible and non-prime. Since ##p## is chosen irreducible, it has to conflict the other property, being non-prime, which was our first assumption. But non-non-prime means ##p## is prime, what had to be shown.

There's a lot of rollback in this proof. If it were a source code, I would insist on at least a three-level indent:
1. ##p## is not prime.
##\Longrightarrow r \in D##
2. ##f(x)## splits over ##D##
##\Longrightarrow \textrm{ w.l.o.g. } d^{-1}t \in D##
3. w.l.o.g. ##a/p \in D##
contradiction​
##\Longrightarrow d^{-1}t \notin D##
##\Longrightarrow f(x)## doesn't split over ##D## // <-1 indent>
##\Longrightarrow r \notin D## // <-2 indent>
##\Longrightarrow p## not not prime // <-3 indent>
##\Longrightarrow p## prime // <-3 indent>
Thanks fresh_42 ... really appreciate your help ...

... BUT ... just a clarification ...You write:"... ... It leads to ##d^{-1}t \in D \;\wedge \; d^{-1}t \notin D## ... ... "I can see that ##d^{-1}t \in D## ... ... since ##d## is a unit of ##D## we have ##d^{-1} \in D## and also we have ##t \in D## ... so ##d^{-1}t \in D## ...But in what way do we show that ##d^{-1}t \notin D## ... ... ? How do you argue that ##a/p \in D## ... ? Don't Alaca and Williams only argue that ##a/p \in F##?

Can you help ...

Peter
 
Last edited:
fresh_42 said:
We have ##0=f(-d^{-1}t)=p(-d^{-1}t-a/p)(-d^{-1}t-b/p)## in the field ##F##.
So one factor has to be zero. Since ##p\neq 0##, w.l.o.g. (the argument in the other case is the same) ##d^{-1}t = -\frac{a}{p} \notin D## because ##p\nmid a## in ##D##.
 
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