Quantum Temperature Relations?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of absolute zero on particle behavior in quantum mechanics, exploring concepts such as kinetic energy, zero-point energy, and the statistical definitions of temperature. Participants examine how temperature affects quantum systems, including bosons and fermions, and the role of entropy at low temperatures.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that at absolute zero, particles stop moving, linking this to the definition of temperature as average kinetic energy.
  • Others clarify that while thermal motion appears to stop, quantum effects introduce complexities, particularly regarding bosons and fermions.
  • One participant mentions that near absolute zero, systems exhibit collective vibrations (phonons) rather than free atomic movement.
  • There is a discussion about the concept of zero-point energy, which remains non-zero at absolute zero.
  • Some participants highlight that the definition of temperature is not solely based on kinetic energy but also involves statistical distributions of particles at different energy levels.
  • Another point raised is that at absolute zero, the entropy approaches zero, which is a different aspect from energy considerations.
  • Quantum definitions of temperature are discussed, indicating that at T=0, only the lowest energy eigenstate is populated, contrasting with higher temperatures where other states may be populated.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying interpretations of temperature and its relationship to kinetic energy, with no consensus on a strict definition. The discussion includes multiple competing views on the behavior of particles at absolute zero, particularly regarding the roles of entropy and quantum statistics.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the definitions of temperature and energy, as well as the unresolved nature of how different systems behave as they approach absolute zero.

evanlee
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
I was talking with a friend earlier today about the idea that at absolute zero, particles essentially stop moving. I know that this makes sense since temperature is defined as average kinetic energy, which, if this equals 0, implies no movement. That made me think, however, about the uncertainty inherent in quantum mechanics and wondered what a particle or set of particles at absolutely zero would mean? If momentum is known to be zero, do these particles solely act as waves? How do changes in temperature affect systems of quantum particles? I have taken quantum mechanics at the undergraduate level, but if there are principles out there that might answer this question, I'd really appreciate some directing!

Thanks!
 
Physics news on Phys.org
evanlee, For a classical system, your statement that "temperature is defined as average kinetic energy" is close but not exactly correct. For a classical ideal gas the average energy per molecule turns out to be <E> = (3/2) kT. But this is a result, not a definition of T! It is true that according to this formula, thermal motion appears to stop at absolute zero.

However as a real system approaches absolute zero it will differ from this formula. Quantum effects become important, and what happens depends on whether the system is composed of bosons or fermions.

But in the first place, near absolute zero most things freeze! In a solid atoms do not move freely about, and thermal motion consists of collective vibrations of the lattice (phonons). This makes an important difference. To talk about the thermal properties of such a system near absolute zero, we may consider the phonons to be a gas, but it's a different kind of gas in which the number of particles is not fixed. For this reason you can no longer talk about the energy per particle, rather the energy per volume. It turns out that as T goes to zero, <E> ~ T4. The same is true of a gas of photons (black-body radiation) which are also bosons.

Another type of system is He4. As you know He4 becomes a superfluid below a critical temperature Tc, about 4 K. At this point the system becomes inhomogeneous, splitting into two phases with a fraction of the particles forming a condensate. This comes closest to your idea that absolute zero means p = 0. Consistent with the uncertainty principle, particles in the condensate are nonlocalized, meaning their wavefunction extends over a macroscopic distance.

The third type of system is a gas of fermions. Two fermions cannot occupy the same state, so here at absolute zero the particles fill up the lowest available states up to an energy EF, the Fermi energy. For a Fermi gas, at absolute zero the energy per particle does *not* go to zero.
 
evanlee said:
I was talking with a friend earlier today about the idea that at absolute zero, particles essentially stop moving. I know that this makes sense since temperature is defined as average kinetic energy, which, if this equals 0, implies no movement. That made me think, however, about the uncertainty inherent in quantum mechanics and wondered what a particle or set of particles at absolutely zero would mean? If momentum is known to be zero, do these particles solely act as waves? How do changes in temperature affect systems of quantum particles? I have taken quantum mechanics at the undergraduate level, but if there are principles out there that might answer this question, I'd really appreciate some directing!

Thanks!

As has been pointed out, temperature is only approximately related to the average kinetic energy of a system (a fact that high school textbooks/teachers seem to be unaware of). And yes, you are correct, there IS a lowest non-zero kinetic energy at absolute zero. It is often called the zero-point energy.
 
Hello, Bill,

You pointed out that <KE> = 3/2 kT is not the definition of the temperature, but the derived result from classical mechanics. However, what is the strict definition of temperature . I seemly read a post from a web saying that "absolute temperature (T) is the indicator of particles distribution at different energy level.". This seems coming from statistical picture. At absolute 0, all particles have on zero-point energy.

How do you think?

Thanks!

John
Bill_K said:
evanlee, For a classical system, your statement that "temperature is defined as average kinetic energy" is close but not exactly correct. For a classical ideal gas the average energy per molecule turns out to be <E> = (3/2) kT. But this is a result, not a definition of T! It is true that according to this formula, thermal motion appears to stop at absolute zero.

However as a real system approaches absolute zero it will differ from this formula. Quantum effects become important, and what happens depends on whether the system is composed of bosons or fermions.

But in the first place, near absolute zero most things freeze! In a solid atoms do not move freely about, and thermal motion consists of collective vibrations of the lattice (phonons). This makes an important difference. To talk about the thermal properties of such a system near absolute zero, we may consider the phonons to be a gas, but it's a different kind of gas in which the number of particles is not fixed. For this reason you can no longer talk about the energy per particle, rather the energy per volume. It turns out that as T goes to zero, <E> ~ T4. The same is true of a gas of photons (black-body radiation) which are also bosons.

Another type of system is He4. As you know He4 becomes a superfluid below a critical temperature Tc, about 4 K. At this point the system becomes inhomogeneous, splitting into two phases with a fraction of the particles forming a condensate. This comes closest to your idea that absolute zero means p = 0. Consistent with the uncertainty principle, particles in the condensate are nonlocalized, meaning their wavefunction extends over a macroscopic distance.

The third type of system is a gas of fermions. Two fermions cannot occupy the same state, so here at absolute zero the particles fill up the lowest available states up to an energy EF, the Fermi energy. For a Fermi gas, at absolute zero the energy per particle does *not* go to zero.
 
Last edited:
RedCliff, It's not the energy that goes to zero at absolute zero, it's the entropy. And the definition of absolute temperature is in terms of the entropy.

The First Law of Thermodynamics is dU = T dS - P dV. We may therefore define T = (∂U/∂S)V. Or sometimes this is written 1/T = (∂S/∂U)V.
 
Quantum-mechanically you define T=0 to be the point where only the lowest energy eigenstate of the system is populated while at higher temperatures also higher energy states have a probability to be populated. These probabilities go under the name Boltzmann, Fermi-Dirac or Bose-Einstein statistics.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
682
  • · Replies 36 ·
2
Replies
36
Views
8K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 41 ·
2
Replies
41
Views
5K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
4K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
11K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
3K