Question about Cosets and Lagrange's Theorem

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    Cosets Theorem
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of cosets in group theory, specifically whether a right coset \( Ha \) of a subgroup \( H \) is itself a subgroup. Participants explore the implications of Lagrange's Theorem and the conditions under which cosets can be considered subgroups.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether \( Ha \) can be a subgroup, providing an example with \( G = \langle a \rangle \) and \( H = \langle a^3 \rangle \), suggesting that \( Ha \) and \( Ha^2 \) are not closed under the group operation.
  • Another participant notes that the problem does not specify that \( a \) must be an element of \( H \), implying that the conditions for \( Ha \) being a subgroup are not met unless \( a \in H \).
  • A different participant asserts that \( Ha \) is a subgroup if and only if \( Ha = H \), which occurs if and only if \( a \in H \), and explains that if \( Ha \neq H \), then \( Ha \) does not contain the identity element.
  • One participant discusses the construction of \( G \) from disjoint cosets, emphasizing that while \( H \) is a subgroup, the other cosets like \( Ha \), \( Hg \), and \( Hh \) are merely disjoint sets of elements of \( G \) and not subgroups.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether \( Ha \) can be considered a subgroup, with some asserting it cannot unless \( a \in H \), while others explore the implications of the definitions without reaching a consensus.

Contextual Notes

There is an ongoing uncertainty regarding the conditions under which cosets can be classified as subgroups, particularly the role of the element \( a \) in relation to the subgroup \( H \). The discussion highlights the dependency on definitions and the implications of Lagrange's Theorem.

PsychonautQQ
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If a is an element of G and H is a subgroup of H, let Ha be the right coset of H generated by a.

is Ha a subgroup?

I have this question because i feel like the answer should be know, yet my textbook notation makes it look like it is.

Why I think it should only be a set:
Let G = <a> and H = <a^3>. and |a| = 6,.
Then H = {1,a^3}, Ha = {a,a^4} Ha^2 = {a^2,a^5}.
To me it looks like Ha and Ha^2 can not be subgroups because they are not closed under the operation, unless the operation is multiplying the elements by a^3.. I don't know I'm confused.

But then I think they should be considered subgroups, because it goes on to say that Ha = H iff a is in H. So Ha must be a subgroup if it equals a subgroup... Anyway, anyone have insight here?
 
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The problem doesn't not say that a must be an element of H. What the textbook goes on to say about the case when a is an element of H is not relevant to the problem.
 
PsychonautQQ said:
is Ha a subgroup?
##Ha## is a subgroup if and only if ##Ha = H## if and only if ##a \in H##.

One easy way to see this is that if ##Ha \neq H## then ##Ha## and ##H## are disjoint, so ##Ha## does not even contain the identity element.
 
so when you create G out of disjoint cosets, you are joining H (a subgroup of G) with Ha, Hg, Hh, etc etc, which are only disjoint sets of elements of G?
 
PsychonautQQ said:
so when you create G out of disjoint cosets, you are joining H (a subgroup of G) with Ha, Hg, Hh, etc etc, which are only disjoint sets of elements of G?
Yes, ##G## is the disjoint union of ##H## and the other cosets of ##H##. Only ##H## is a subgroup. The other cosets are subsets of ##G## with the same size as ##H##, but they aren't subgroups.
 
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