Cosets: Is [gH] a Subgroup of G?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Clear Mind
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of left cosets in group theory, specifically whether a left coset of a subgroup forms a subgroup itself or merely a subset of the larger group. Participants explore various cases and implications of choosing different elements from the group and the subgroup.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the left coset ##[g_1 H]## forms a subgroup of ##G## or is just a subset.
  • Another participant suggests checking trivial cases, noting that if ##g_1## is the identity element, then ##[g_1 H] = H##, which is a subgroup.
  • It is proposed that if ##g_1 \in H##, then ##[g_1 H]## is a subgroup because it contains the identity and is closed under the group operation.
  • Concerns are raised about the case when ##g_1 \not\in H##, with one participant attempting to prove that the coset does not contain the identity element of ##G##.
  • Another participant emphasizes the need to show that if ##g_1 \not\in H##, then the identity cannot be in the coset ##[g_1 H]##.
  • There is a discussion about the uniqueness of inverses in groups and how this relates to the properties of cosets.
  • One participant expresses confusion about their mathematical reasoning but acknowledges understanding a contradiction that arises when assuming the identity is in the coset while ##g_1 \not\in H##.
  • There is mention of the properties of cosets, including that they are either identical or disjoint, and how this relates to the structure of groups.
  • Discussion touches on the concept of normal subgroups and their relation to cosets forming a group.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether a left coset can be a subgroup, with some arguing it can be under certain conditions (e.g., when ##g_1 \in H##) while others contend that it cannot be when ##g_1 \not\in H##. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the general case of cosets forming subgroups.

Contextual Notes

Participants explore various mathematical implications and properties without reaching a consensus on the generality of their claims. The discussion includes assumptions about group properties and the definitions of cosets that may not be universally agreed upon.

Clear Mind
Messages
38
Reaction score
3
Hi,
this week I've started to study group theory and there's a thing that i don't understand about cosets: Suppose to have a group ##\textit{G}## and a subgroup ##\textit{H}##, than ##\forall g \in \textit{G}## i can build my left coset ##[g \textit{H}]##. Now, here's my question: Once you have chosen an element ##g_{1} \in \textit{G}##, does my left coset ##[g_{1} \textit{H}]## form a subgroup of ##\textit{G}## or it's just a subset?
Thanks in advance for the help!
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
Clear Mind said:
Once you have choose an element ##g_{1} \in \textit{G}##, does my left coset ##[g_{1} \textit{H}]## form a subgroup of ##\textit{G}## or it's just a subset?

Always check the trivial cases. If you pick ##g_1## to be the identity element, the coset ##g_1H = H##, so it is possible for a coset to be a group. In fact, what happens when you pick ##g_1## to be any particular element of ##H## ?

The interesting cases will be when ##g_1## is not an element of ##H##. If you try an example, you'll see that the coset ##g_1H## is not a subgroup of G because it does not contain the identity element of ##G##. Can you prove this defect always happens ?
 
Stephen Tashi said:
In fact, what happens when you pick ##g_1## to be any particular element of ##H## ?
Well, if ##g_1 \in H## than i suppose that ##\forall g_1## and ##\forall h \in H , g_1*h \in H## so my left coset ##[g_1 H]## it's a subgroup.

Stephen Tashi said:
Can you prove this defect always happens ?
Mumble ... i think that if ##g_1 \not\in H## than ##\forall h \in H##, ##\tilde{g_1}=g_1 * h \not\in [g_1 H]## (but ##\tilde{g_1} \in G##); so if you take the element ##\tilde{g}_1^{-1}## you will have that ##\tilde{g_1} * \tilde{g}_1^{-1} = \mathbb{I}##, where ##\mathbb{I} \not\in [g_1 H]##. But my math skills are quite horrible, so i don't know if it's correct :(
 
Clear Mind said:
Well, if ##g_1 \in H## than i suppose that ##\forall g_1## and ##\forall h \in H , g_1*h \in H##
That shows ##[g_1H] \subset H##. You should also show that ##H \subset [ g_1H] ##

Mumble ... i think that if ##g_1 \not\in H## than ##\forall h \in H##, ##\tilde{g_1}=g_1 * h \not\in [g_1 H]##

No.
##g_1*h \in [g_1 H]## by definition of ##[g_1 H]##. The question is whether the identity of ##G## is an element of ##[g_1 H]##.

Try proof by contradiction. Assume ##g_1 \not\in H## and ##\mathbb{I} \in [g_1H]##. Then, for some ##h \in H ##, ##g_1 h = \mathbb{I} ##. In a group, inverses are unique and left inverses are equal to right inverses. So ##h^{-1} = g_1 ##. Since ##h \in H## and ##H## is a subgroup, ##h^{-1}## is also an element of ##H##.
 
Stephen Tashi said:
That shows ##[g_1H] \subset H##. You should also show that ##H \subset [ g_1H] ##
I've tryed to prove it, but i didn't succeed. By the way i think I've found a more directly way to show that ##H=[g_1 H]## if ## g_1 \in H##, but I'm stuck:
Let's (## \forall g_1 , g_2 \in H##) build two left cosets, ##[g_1 H]## and ##[g_2 H]##, now, suppose that ##\exists \tilde{g}## so that ##\tilde{g} \in [g_1 H]## and ##\tilde{g} \in [g_2 H]##. Than:
$$\tilde{g}=g_1 h_1=g_2 h_2 \rightarrow g_2^{-1} g_1 h_1=h_2 \rightarrow g_2^{-1} g_1=h_2 h_1^{-1}=h $$
but that mean that ##\exists h \in H : g_1=g_2 h##, so ##[g_1 H]=[g_2 h H]=[g_2 H]##, the two cosets are the same coset. And here is where I'm stuck, i should now show that since ##\forall g_1 , g_2 \in H , [g_1 H]=[g_2 H]=H## ...

Stephen Tashi said:
No.
##g_1*h \in [g_1 H]## by definition of ##[g_1 H]##.
Well ... at least I've prove that I'm an idiot! My apologies.

Stephen Tashi said:
Try proof by contradiction. Assume ##g_1 \not\in H## and ##\mathbb{I} \in [g_1H]##. Then, for some ##h \in H ##, ##g_1 h = \mathbb{I} ##. In a group, inverses are unique and left inverses are equal to right inverses. So ##h^{-1} = g_1 ##. Since ##h \in H## and ##H## is a subgroup, ##h^{-1}## is also an element of ##H##.
Ok, I've understand, by assuming that ##g_1 \not\in H## and ##\mathbb{I} \in [g_1H]## you end up finding the contradiction: ##g_1 \not\in H## and ##g_1=h^{-1} \in H##, where ##h^{-1}## must ## \in H## by the definition of group.
Many thanks for the help!
 
Clear Mind said:
so ##[g_1 H]=[g_2 h H]=[g_2 H]##
If you are assuming ##[hH] = H ## then you're assuming what was to be proven.

-------

For two arbitrary subsets of a group ##G##, one may define the product of those two sets. A coset is a special case of this where one set is a singleton and the other set is a subgroup. One may ask what special properties cosets have that arbitrary subsets of group need not have. Two cosets of the same subgroup ##H## are either identical or they are disjoint. The work you are doing considers two cosets ##[g_1H]## and ##[g_1H]##, so some modification of your proof might get you that result.

The collection of distinct cosets of ##H## is a collection of disjoint subsets of ##G##, so it's natural to ask whether it is a partition of the set ##G##.

If we have collection of subsets of ##G## , then it's interesting to ask if these sets can be regarded as elements of another group where the group operation is "take the set product". Cosets of the same subgroup don't always form a group when regarded in this manner. For special types of subgroups ("normal" subgroups) their cosets do form a group.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
984
  • · Replies 26 ·
Replies
26
Views
1K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K