Question on the concept of " Identity "

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of "Identity" as presented in Van Dalen's "Logic and Structure." Participants are examining the implications of axiomatizing identity compared to treating it as a binary predicate. The scope includes theoretical exploration and semantic considerations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions what is gained by axiomatizing 'Identity' rather than treating it as a binary predicate, noting that the axioms still utilize the identity symbol as a binary predicate.
  • Another participant acknowledges that the axiom I4 is an axiom scheme, suggesting that for each term "t" and each formula "φ," there is a corresponding axiom.
  • Some participants assert that axioms I2 and I3 can be proved using axioms I1 and I4, indicating a relationship between these axioms.
  • One participant emphasizes the distinction between semantics and derivability, suggesting that the axioms highlight that '=' is not merely an arbitrary predicate symbol.
  • There is a mention that the term version of axiom I4 can be proved from its formula version, indicating a connection between different representations of the axiom.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the significance of axiomatizing identity, with some focusing on the implications for semantics and derivability, while others question the necessity of the axioms. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the overall value of the axiomatization.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the potential limitations in understanding the implications of the axioms, particularly regarding the definitions of identity and the conditions under which the axioms hold. There is also a recognition of the need for further exploration of the relationship between the axioms and their proofs.

Mathelogician
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Hi all;
Look at the attached part from Van Dalen's Logic and structure.
What is he doing exactly?
In axiomatizing 'Identity' as he does, what is gained rather than what we had before (i.e., looking at 'Identity' as a binary predicate)?!
Even in the axioms, he is again using a symbol in the language for identity as a binary predicate (i.e., = ) and then he proves the axioms (or says they are provable) in the language. [note that he also proves I3 and I4 that i haven't shown.]
Thanks.
 

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Mathelogician said:
Hi all;
Look at the attached part from Van Dalen's Logic and structure.
What is he doing exactly?
In axiomatizing 'Identity' as he does, what is gained rather than what we had before (i.e., looking at 'Identity' as a binary predicate)?!
Even in the axioms, he is again using a symbol in the language for identity as a binary predicate (i.e., = ) and then he proves the axioms (or says they are provable) in the language. [note that he also proves I3 and I4 that i haven't shown.]
Thanks.

The axiom I4 is rather an axiom sceme ,because for each "t" and for each "φ" we a corresponding axiom.

Axioms I2 and I3 can be proved using axioms I1 and I4
 
Last edited:
Of course they are axiom schemes; but I'm afraid my question is something else!
Thanks.
 
When we are talking about semantics (i.e., $\models$), this section may be considered just as an observation that identity satisfies these axioms. The importance of the axioms comes when we consider the derivability relation $\vdash$ (Definition 1.4.2). Then we have to use special axioms or inference rules to say that $=$ is not just an arbitrary predicate symbol.

solakis said:
Axioms I2 and I3 can be proved using axioms I1 and I4
This is true. It is given as an exercise later in the text. The term version of $I_4$ can also be proved from the formula version.
 

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