Questions arisen while reading Weinberg's Cosmology

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around concepts presented in Weinberg's book "Cosmology," specifically regarding the nature of the microwave background radiation, thermal equilibrium, and the behavior of photons in an expanding universe. Participants explore the implications of high temperatures on matter and radiation, the transition from thermal equilibrium, and the mathematical relationships governing these phenomena.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how photons exist in the universe when high temperatures lead to free electrons, suggesting a need for clarification on their origin and role in thermal equilibrium.
  • Another participant explains that photons were created alongside other elementary particles and that everything was initially in thermal equilibrium until matter began to form into atoms.
  • A metaphor comparing thermal equilibrium to stirring hot soup is used to illustrate the concept of equilibrium before matter formation.
  • It is noted that photons are not conserved, meaning their total number can change, and that hot objects emit and absorb radiation, contributing to thermal equilibrium.
  • A participant seeks clarification on the transition of radiation to free expansion and its relation to vacuum and density, prompting a discussion on the density of matter affecting photon movement.
  • Another participant explains that the free expansion of radiation occurs when matter becomes less dense, allowing photons to travel more freely.
  • Mathematical relationships involving redshift and photon frequency are discussed, with participants attempting to derive equations related to the number density of photons over time.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the mechanisms behind the existence of photons and the conditions for thermal equilibrium. There is no consensus on the implications of these concepts, and several questions remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference complex mathematical relationships and physical concepts that may depend on specific definitions and assumptions, which are not fully resolved in the discussion.

kiwakwok
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I was reading Weinberg's book Cosmology. When I went to chapter 2, under the subsection 2.1 "Expectations and discovery of the microwave background" I could not understand one statement.

---Quote---
The work done by pressure in an expanding fluid uses heat energy drawn from the fluid. The universe is expanding, so we expect that in the past matter was hotter as well as denser than at present. If we look far enough backward in time we come to an era when it was too hat for electrons to be bound into atoms. At sufficiently early times the rapid collisions of photons with free electrons would have kept radiation in the thermal equilibrium with the hot dense matter. The number density of photons in equilibrium with matter at temperature T at photon frequency between \nu and \nu+d\nu is given by the black-body spectrum:

\displaystyle n_T(\nu)d\nu=\frac{8\pi\nu^2d\nu}{\mathrm{exp}(h \nu/k_BT)-1}​
---Quote---

The followings are what I do not understand:
When the temperature is sufficiently high, the bound electrons escape from the atoms and become free electrons in the universe.

Yet, how come there are photons in the universe?
Do they come from the radiation of the hot matter?
Even thought there are photons and they collide with the free electrons, what does "kept radiation in the thermal equilibrium with the hot dense matter" mean?

What I have learned previously about black-body radiation is that a "hot" object in thermal equilibrium with its surrounding emits radiation.
 
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hi kiwakwok! :smile:
kiwakwok said:
… how come there are photons in the universe?

Even thought there are photons and they collide with the free electrons, what does "kept radiation in the thermal equilibrium with the hot dense matter" mean?

photons were created at the same time as all the other elementary particles

everything was in thermal equilibrium with everything else, until matter started forming into atoms

a bit like soup … if you stir hot soup, it'll all be at the same temperature ("thermal equilibrium") … but if it cools enough for lumps to form, the liquid soup and the lumps won't necessarily be at the same temperature! :wink:
Do they come from the radiation of the hot matter?

What I have learned previously about black-body radiation is that a "hot" object in thermal equilibrium with its surrounding emits radiation.

photons aren't conserved: the total number of photons can change

so yes, some photons come from radiation of hot matter

in black-body radiation, a "hot" object always (whether in thermal equilibrium or not) both emits radiation (photons) and absorbs radiation …

when it emits and absorbs at the same rate (at all frequencies), that's thermal equilibrium :smile:
 
I would like to ask one more question:

--Quote--
As time pass, the matter became cooler and less dense, and eventually the radiation began a free expansion, but its spectrum has kept the same form. We can see this most easily under an extreme assumption, that there was a time t_L when radiation suddenly went from begin in thermal equilibrium with matter to a free expression. Under this assumption, a photon that has frequency \nu at some later time t when photons are traveling freely would have had frequency \nu a(t)/a(t_L) at the time radiation went out of equilibrium with matter and so the number density at time t of photons with frequency between \nu and \nu + d\nu would be

\displaystyle n(\nu,t)d\nu=\left(a(t_L)/a(t)\right)^3n_{T(t_L)}\left(\nu a(t)/a(t_L)\right)d(\nu a(t)/a(t_L)),​

with the factor \left(a(t_L)/a(t)\right)^3 arising from the dilution of photons due to the cosmic expansion. Using the equation of black-body spectrum and the equation above, we see that beat the redshift factor a(t)/a(t_L) all cancel except in he exponential, so that the number density at time t is given by

\displaystyle n(\nu,t)d\nu=\frac{8\pi\nu^2d\nu}{\mathrm{exp}(h \nu/k_BT(t)-1}=n_{T(t)}(\nu)d\nu,​

where

T(t)=T(t_L)a(t_L)/t(t)​
--Quote--

The radiation became a free expansion, is it because there is vacuum in the universe?
Also, How can I know "photons are traveling freely would have had frequency \nu a(t)/a(t_L)"?
Can you give me some hint, so that I can make \nu a(t)/a(t_L) into \displaystyle n(\nu,t)d\nu=\left(a(t_L)/a(t)\right)^3n_{T(t_L)}\left(\nu a(t)/a(t_L)\right)d(\nu a(t)/a(t_L))?
 
kiwakwok said:
The radiation became a free expansion, is it because there is vacuum in the universe?

no, it's because matter became less dense

photons produced at the centre of the sun take thousands of years to get out of the sun and come towards us …

that's because they keep bouncing backwards and forwards off the matter in the sun, the matter is so dense that they hardly get anywhere (which is ideal for thermal equilibrium, since the energy produced stays more or less where it is)

only when they get where the sun is less dense can they move in more or less a straight line (and the sun at last loses energy to the outside :wink:)

the free expansion was for the same reason … matter was less dense, and the photons could actually keep going
Also, How can I know "photons are traveling freely would have had frequency \nu a(t)/a(t_L)"?
Can you give me some hint, so that I can make \nu a(t)/a(t_L) into \displaystyle n(\nu,t)d\nu=\left(a(t_L)/a(t)\right)^3n_{T(t_L)}\left(\nu a(t)/a(t_L)\right)d(\nu a(t)/a(t_L))?

a(t)/a(tL) is the red-shift factor, which applies equally to all wavelengths

so you take the present wavelength, divide it by the red-shift, and you get the wavelength at time L (the time radiation went out of equilibrium with matter) :smile:
 
Do you mean?
\frac{\lambda(t)}{a(t)/a(t_L)}=\lambda (t_L)

d\nu=-\frac{1}{\lambda^2}d\lambda=-\left(\frac{a(t)}{a(t_L)}\right)^2\cdot\frac{1}{ \lambda (t)^2}d \lambda​
 
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