Quran Burning Cancelled: Publicity Stunt From The Start?

[nismaratwork]

As a Muslim, I say Burn the Quran. It's the best way to dispose of it. Seriously, the Quran means Revelation. You can burn a piece of paper, I don't give a damn.

I don't understand how your post is relevant to the issue being discussed.

 

[D H]

I don't understand how your post is relevant to the issue being discussed.

I take it as a voice of reason. I feel the same about people burning the US flag. Burning flags is, after all, the proper way to dispose of old, worn out flags. There is a specific ceremony for doing just that. That said, the ceremony does involve a certain amount of reverence and respect toward the flag. Those people who use the US flag in a different kind of flag burning ceremony certainly do have some feelings of reverence and respect toward the US. (Feelings of irreverence and disrespect, to be specific.)

Those US citizens who burn the flag against standard procedures may have some goofy ideas, but those goofy ideas are fully protected by the Constitution. The Constitution is all about protecting goofy ideas. Some of those goofy ideas turn out to be very good ideas later on. Those that burn the flag outside the US are in a way demonstrating the superiority of our way of thinking and our way of life.

 

[nismaratwork]

I take it as a voice of reason. I feel the same about people burning the US flag. Burning flags is, after all, the proper way to dispose of old, worn out flags. There is a specific ceremony for doing just that. That said, the ceremony does involve a certain amount of reverence and respect toward the flag. Those people who use the US flag in a different kind of flag burning ceremony certainly do have some feelings of reverence and respect toward the US. (Feelings of irreverence and disrespect, to be specific.)

Those US citizens who burn the flag against standard procedures may have some goofy ideas, but those goofy ideas are fully protected by the Constitution. The Constitution is all about protecting goofy ideas. Some of those goofy ideas turn out to be very good ideas later on. Those that burn the flag outside the US are in a way demonstrating the superiority of our way of thinking and our way of life.

Yeah, I agree with you, but I'm not sure that I take CheckMate at his word on this one. There are actual "handling" instructions IN the quran itself, which within Islam is supposed to be the exact word of god. I admit, disposal isn't addressed in it AFAIK, only storage, but this seems a bit cavalier if he's really muslim. I admit, I'd be thrilled if he's being honest, but one guy saying that burning the quran is, "the best way to dispose of it..." has nothing to do with a nutcase in florida burning it as a protest or whatever-the-hell that guy was thinking.

I think you can make an argument that as with ceremonial cremation, a culture could embrace the notion of burning their scriptures instead of dumping them in the trash, but that has no bearing on this attempt to gain publicity by a twit with a bad mustache. I have to say, even then I'm being generous, because the follow-up, "you can burn a piece of paper, I don't give a damn." suggests that burning isn't about the best way to dispose of anything. The whole comment raises my "BS-Ometer", even though it would be kind of thrilling to hear this sentiment echoed in the wider population.

So again, I ask: what relevance does his comment have, except to say that one person claiming to be of a particular faith is apathetic in regards to this issue?

 

[mheslep]

In Loveland, Colorado since September 11 a local art gallery funded by taxpayers has exhibited a http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/04/outrage-art-exhibit-depicting-jesus-sex-act-boosts-gallery-visits/".

Here's a brief recap on the immediate and declarative statements and actions not taken by the leadership of the US government to attempt to stop the lithograph exhibit in Loveland. Prior to the exhibit, US Secretary of Defense Gates did not http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20016023-503544.html"the exhibit as "completely contrary to our values."

Also interesting was the http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&...q=Chagoya&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=f0deb6c89471c3f9"I, but instead expressed "surprise" at the flap over the exhibit.

 

[Hepth]

But there's no fear of a violent response, nor is there a huge preexisting tension between artists and Christians; why would you expect great news coverage/national response. If Christians started pouring on death threats, bomb threats; then some extremists of the group actually kill someone/bomb something as Christians vs. art of this form, then yes: I think the news might be more concerned the next time it happens... This really isn't a "I dare you to do something" stunt, as there is no expected response other than local/semi-national news.

Apples and oranges.

Now perhaps, if a group of abortion doctors starting filming abortions and projecting them onto say, a public wall or something similar, inviting people to come watch; I believe there would be national attention and fear of retaliation. Agree?

 

[alt]

But there's no fear of a violent response, nor is there a huge preexisting tension between artists and Christians; why would you expect great news coverage/national response. If Christians started pouring on death threats, bomb threats; then some extremists of the group actually kill someone/bomb something as Christians vs. art of this form, then yes: I think the news might be more concerned the next time it happens... This really isn't a "I dare you to do something" stunt, as there is no expected response other than local/semi-national news.

Apples and oranges.

Now perhaps, if a group of abortion doctors starting filming abortions and projecting them onto say, a public wall or something similar, inviting people to come watch; I believe there would be national attention and fear of retaliation. Agree?

I'll stay out of your last paragraph, though, Yes, I agree with your first.

 

[Proton Soup]

But there's no fear of a violent response, nor is there a huge preexisting tension between artists and Christians; why would you expect great news coverage/national response. If Christians started pouring on death threats, bomb threats; then some extremists of the group actually kill someone/bomb something as Christians vs. art of this form, then yes: I think the news might be more concerned the next time it happens... This really isn't a "I dare you to do something" stunt, as there is no expected response other than local/semi-national news.

Apples and oranges.

Now perhaps, if a group of abortion doctors starting filming abortions and projecting them onto say, a public wall or something similar, inviting people to come watch; I believe there would be national attention and fear of retaliation. Agree?

so what you're saying is that the only thing that matters is public safety. there are no issues here of cultural tolerance, that's just a bunch of appeasement talk from the president et al.

i guess the question i'd have for you is: why ask for more appeasement from the historically appeasing? why not demand more tolerance from the historically violent?

 

[Hepth]

i guess the question i'd have for you is: why ask for more appeasement from the historically appeasing? why not demand more tolerance from the historically violent?

Because its easier? ;) And probably gets more results/less conflict. Its merely practicality. Sure we can ask terrorists to please stop threatening/killing those who offend them, or to not be offended so easily, or we can ask the people who offend them (though they have a right to do so) to please not offend them so much.

You don't leave your laptop on your lawn then get upset when someone steals it, blaming the police when they tell you "Don't be an idiot, lock up your laptop".

 

[Hepth]

so what you're saying is that the only thing that matters is public safety. there are no issues here of cultural tolerance, that's just a bunch of appeasement talk from the president et al.

Ah I see what you're saying here, that I'm claiming the issue is safety rather than respecting another's religion/culture. While I can only guess as to the WH's motives, my opinion would be yes, its a safety issue.

Sure, we should, and do, encourage tolerance of others' viewpoints and beliefs while defending their right to have those beliefs. I am in no way justifying a violent response to an offense; but neither am I sympathetic to those that go out of their way to offend as a demonstration of their rights. Both parties share responsibility if the intent was to offend.

 

[Proton Soup]

Ah I see what you're saying here, that I'm claiming the issue is safety rather than respecting another's religion/culture. While I can only guess as to the WH's motives, my opinion would be yes, its a safety issue.

Sure, we should, and do, encourage tolerance of others' viewpoints and beliefs while defending their right to have those beliefs. I am in no way justifying a violent response to an offense; but neither am I sympathetic to those that go out of their way to offend as a demonstration of their rights. Both parties share responsibility if the intent was to offend.

i guess what i would like to see is a little more integrity. I'm a bit weary of the appeasement, and the dishonesty. i think appeasement trades near-term safety for long-term insecurity.

i'd also disagree that it's simply a safety issue. i think it's more of a foreign relations issue. and oddly enough, i think that Obama (born to a muslim father and educated in muslim schools) is the single best diplomatic tool we have right now. and he couldn't have come along at a better time. I'm a bit baffled that more of the right doesn't get this.

 

[WhoWee]

I wonder if anyone would have a problem with a US Government funded artist burning a Quran - afterall THAT would be "Art" - certainly not a religious statement.:uhh:

 

[drizzle]

Excuse me, I know a few Muslims. They're middle-class Americans and I've never heard a WORD out of them about any religious outrage. You, like so many others in these threads, are implying that Muslims are a homogeneous group.

There's a reason why most of the outrage comes from poor countries. There's a reason why more Muslim extremists exist in post-war Iraq than there were in pre-war Iraq. There's a reason they arose in poor Afghanistan and not in the wealthy UAE.

Of course there will be outliers in either direction, but there are socio-economic reasons for religious extremism that have little to do with their actual religion.

I call your attention to 1100 CE Europe. The poor oppressed Christians were absolute barbarians, while the rich Muslims were the center of civilization. Both groups were using the same holy texts that they are using today. They haven't changed. What HAS changed is the relative prosperity levels of each group.

Do you know that burning books was one of the contributing factors of the fall of their civilization!

 

[mheslep]

The above statements indicating Christian doctrines are little changed since 1100 CE are grossly wrong. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation" [/I] by the scholar B. Lewis.

Also many of the most radical Islamists leading AQ come from wealthy backgrounds: Bin Laden a multimillionaire, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zawahiri" an Egyptian doctor, the 911 hijacker pilots upper or middle class in Europe. Most of the Gitmo detainees picked up in Afghanistan or Iraq were not Afghani or Iraqi, but Arabs from the Middle East (not Palestine either).

 

[JaredJames]

It would appear that despite this guy standing down, some people did plan to regardless:

http://www.godhatesfags.com/fliers/20100910_WBC-to-Burn-the-Koran-Sept-11.pdf

(West Borough Baptist Church)

No one making a fuss of them?

 

[Hepth]

It would appear that despite this guy standing down, some people did plan to regardless:

http://www.godhatesfags.com/fliers/20100910_WBC-to-Burn-the-Koran-Sept-11.pdf

(West Borough Baptist Church)

No one making a fuss of them?

Well if the national/international news isn't reporting it then there's not much threat of widespread retaliation, and therefor no reason to report it.

 

[alt]

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/not-responsible-for-deaths-of-un-workers-koranburning-pastor/770691/

Not responsible for deaths of UN workers: Quran-burning pastor

I tend to agree. These people are just plain mad. No wonder there's such a movement afoot against radical Islam.

 

[Alfi]

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/not-responsible-for-deaths-of-un-workers-koranburning-pastor/770691/

Not responsible for deaths of UN workers: Quran-burning pastor

I tend to agree. These people are just plain mad. No wonder there's such a movement afoot against radical Islam.

these ones ..yes !

 

[alt]

these ones ..yes !

Yes, those ones. Surely you didn't think I meant all Muslim people ?

I resurrected this thread wanting to comment on the matters presently being discussed in the Book Burning thread, prior to seeing it.

But if you look back through this thread, I think I've made my views fairly clear as to which group of people I'm criticizing.

 

[Alfi]

Well if the national/international news isn't reporting it then there's not much threat of widespread retaliation, and therefor no reason to report it.

20/20 hind sight ?

 

[russ_watters]

I realize this is old, but...

I wonder if anyone would have a problem with a US Government funded artist burning a Quran - afterall THAT would be "Art" - certainly not a religious statement.:uhh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

 

[alt]

I realize this is old, but... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

Yes, I referred to this much earlier inthis thread.

Piss ChristPiss Christ is a 1987 photograph by artist and photographer Andres Serrano. It depicts a small plastic crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist's urine. The piece was a winner of the Southeastern Center for Contemporary Art's "Awards in the Visual Arts" competition,[1] which is sponsored in part by the National Endowment for the Arts, a United States Government agency that offers support and funding for artistic projects.

Sponsored by a US government agency no less. For equivalence, they may as well sponsor burning of the Koran.