Reciprocating chemical reaction is it possible?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the feasibility of a perpetual chemical reaction that could function as a never-ending battery. Participants explore the concept of using a series of chemical reactions to continuously release electrons and regenerate the original chemicals, questioning whether such a system could exist without external energy input.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a perpetual chemical reaction that could function as a battery, suggesting that electrons are not lost but merely unenergized.
  • Another participant asserts that the idea represents a chemical perpetual motion machine, stating that while oscillating chemical reactions are possible, they cannot sustain energy extraction indefinitely.
  • A different participant introduces the concept of Gibbs' Free Energy, explaining that all systems tend toward lower energy states, implying that energy input is necessary to return to the original state for reactions to proceed.
  • One participant suggests a mechanical approach involving a piston to harness gas released from a reaction, questioning if pressure and temperature changes could induce further reactions.
  • A later reply counters this mechanical idea, stating it violates the first law of thermodynamics and reiterates that a perpetual motion machine is impossible.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the concept of a perpetual chemical reaction is not feasible, with multiple competing views on the mechanisms and implications of energy input in chemical reactions. The discussion remains unresolved regarding alternative approaches to harnessing chemical energy.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the specific energy requirements and mechanisms involved in the proposed reactions, highlighting the need for further exploration of the concepts discussed.

avolaster
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i've got thoughts about a series of chemical reactions that would simply keep on repeating. perhaps by time release. the thought is to use this perpetual chemical reaction to create a battery that releases the electrons then has a series of chemical reactions eventually resulting in the two original chemicals that have electric potential, once the electrons are released again the chemical process hapens over again. it's a never ending battery, essentailly.


... and it's not like electrons are lost, they are simply un enegrized. please correct me if I am wrong on any detail.

also, is it even possible?
 
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avolaster said:
... and it's not like electrons are lost, they are simply un enegrized. please correct me if I am wrong on any detail.

also, is it even possible?
No.

What you've got there is a chemical perpertual motion machine.

It is possible to get chemical reactions to oscillate (there's a common high school experiment that shows this), but it is short-lived. It cannot repeat for long.

You cannot extract energy from it. Even if you could, then as soon as you removed the energy you would stop the reaction.
 
To echo what DaveC said it is impossible.

Are you aware of the Gibbs' Free Energy concept?

All systems tend toward the lowest energy possible. This is the reason reactions occur spontaneously (they give off energy). Once the reaction has completed, you need to put energy into the system, in one form or another, to get back to the original and have the reaction proceed to produce energy.

Whatever you idea is, this series of reactions, I'm sure that a closer look will reveal steps that require energy input. Thus you are not really creating a never ending battery, more like a rechargeable battery.
 
Googling oscillating chemical reaction will turn up common demonstrations of said:

 
Last edited by a moderator:
What if you had a chemical reaction in the bottom of a piston, reaction occurs, gas released, piston moves upwards, once the reaction is complete the piston starts to move downwards compressing the system using its own weight under the force of gravity. Could the increase in pressure and temperature due to the piston be enough to create another reaction or somehow recombine the products?
 
great_sushi said:
What if you had a chemical reaction in the bottom of a piston, reaction occurs, gas released, piston moves upwards, once the reaction is complete the piston starts to move downwards compressing the system using its own weight under the force of gravity. Could the increase in pressure and temperature due to the piston be enough to create another reaction or somehow recombine the products?

No. It goes against first law of thermodynamics. You can't build perpetuum mobile, period.

Topic locked.
 

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