Recovering some math notions: Variations

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical concepts related to variations, specifically focusing on the notation and meaning of the symbols used in a paper concerning functions defined on the unit circle. Participants explore the implications of the differential operator, time derivatives, and the relationships between various mathematical expressions.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the meaning of the symbol $$\delta$$ and its relation to the notation used in the equations, particularly why $$\dot{f}$$ is absent in the last equation.
  • Another participant suggests that $$\delta$$ may be interpreted as a differential operator similar to $$\Delta$$, proposing that $$\delta f = f_{\epsilon} - f = \epsilon h n$$.
  • There is a discussion about the interpretation of the dots over $$\dot{f}$$ as time derivatives, leading to the inclusion of $$\dot{h}$$ and $$\dot{n}$$.
  • A later reply clarifies that $$\delta f$$ is defined as $$\dfrac{f_\varepsilon - f}{\varepsilon}$$ and discusses the application of the Leibniz rule in this context.
  • Another participant expresses uncertainty about the use of $$\delta r$$ instead of $$\dot{r}$$, suggesting that they feel something is missing in the explanation.
  • One participant posits that there may not be a significant difference between $$\delta r$$ and $$\dot{r}$$, but acknowledges that the notation could be imprecise.
  • There is a mention of a resource that discusses various notations for derivatives, although its applicability to the current discussion is uncertain.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing interpretations of the notation and concepts involved, particularly regarding the meanings of $$\delta$$ and $$\dot{}$$. There is no consensus on whether $$\delta r$$ and $$\dot{r}$$ are equivalent, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the notation used in the referenced paper is not universally defined, leading to potential confusion. The discussion highlights the variability in mathematical notation and the importance of context in understanding derivatives.

egozenovius
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I have a paper and on that paper I only can read:

Let $$f:\mathbb{S^{1}} \to \mathbb{R^2}$$ be a function and $$f_{\epsilon}=f+\epsilon hn$$ and $$\mathbb{S^1}$$ is the unit circle.

$$\dot{f_\epsilon}=\dot{f}+\epsilon\dot{h}n+\epsilon h\dot{n}$$
$$\delta\dot{f}=\dot{h}n+h\dot{n}$$

can you tell me please, what does it mean that $$\delta$$, from where is it? Why $$\dot{f}$$ is not anymore in last equation?

also, I managed to recover the following formula:
$$r_{\epsilon}^{2}=\left(\dot{f}+\epsilon\dot{h}n+\epsilon h\dot{n}\right)^2$$
Can you help me to recover the $$\delta{r}$$?

What I tried:
$$r_{\epsilon}^2=(\dot{f})^2+(\epsilon \dot{h}n)^2+(\epsilon h\dot{n})^2+2(\dot{f}\epsilon\dot{h}n+\dot{f}\epsilon h\dot{n}+\epsilon^2\dot{h}nh\dot{n})$$
But now, I do not know how to compute $$\delta r$$.
 
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It looks like the ##\delta## is the same as ##\Delta## and so ##\delta f = f_{\epsilon} - f = \epsilon h n ##

The dots over ##\dot{f}## mean a time derivative I think so that's why there's an ##\dot{h}## and ##\dot{n}##
 
jedishrfu said:
It looks like the ##\delta## is the same as ##\Delta## and so ##\delta f = f_{\epsilon} - f = \epsilon h n ##

The dots over ##\dot{f}## mean a time derivative I think so that's why there's an ##\dot{h}## and ##\dot{n}##
Not quite. It is ##\delta f=\dfrac{f_\varepsilon - f}{\varepsilon}##, the differential operator. ##h,n## are functions, the rest is the Leibniz rule. To obtain ##\dot{r}## differentiate ##\delta \dot{r}^2=2 \cdot r \cdot \dot{r}##.
 
fresh_42 said:
Not quite. It is ##\delta f=\dfrac{f_\varepsilon - f}{\varepsilon}##, the differential operator. ##h,n## are functions, the rest is the Leibniz rule. To obtain ##\dot{r}## differentiate ##\delta \dot{r}^2=2 \cdot r \cdot \dot{r}##.

Thank for your answer. Please, if it is possible, can you recommend me some books/papers? OK, it seems to be Leibniz rule, but why it was used ##\delta r## instead of ##\dot{r}##... I have the feeling that something is missing me.
 
egozenovius said:
Thank for your answer. Please, if it is possible, can you recommend me some books/papers? OK, it seems to be Leibniz rule, but why it was used ##\delta r## instead of ##\dot{r}##... I have the feeling that something is missing me.
I don't think there is a difference, will say I think ##\delta r =\dot{r}##. But if we take what you wrote word by word, then ##\delta r = \delta_\varepsilon r= \dfrac{r_\varepsilon - r}{\varepsilon}## and ##\dot{r}=\lim_{\varepsilon \to 0}\delta_\varepsilon r##. However, chances are that it is meant to be the same and it's only a bit sloppy noted, i.e. the limit is skipped and replaced by ##\varepsilon## as something going to zero anyway.

I'm not sure what you mean by papers or books. The notation in the paper which you quoted is nowhere else defined. There is no universal truth how to write derivatives, so it's up to the author how they do it. Here is an article I wrote about derivatives in general, but I cannot promise that I have listed all possible notations.
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/the-pantheon-of-derivatives-i/
 

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