Reduced row echelon form of a square matrix

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the reduced row echelon (RRE) form of square matrices and identity matrices. Participants explore whether the RRE form of any square matrix must necessarily be an identity matrix, considering various conditions such as the presence of zero rows or columns and the invertibility of the matrix.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the RRE form of any square matrix must be an identity matrix, seeking proof for this claim.
  • Another participant counters that this is not true, providing examples such as a square zero matrix or any square matrix with at least one zero row or column, stating that a square matrix is row equivalent to the identity matrix if and only if it is invertible.
  • A follow-up question is posed about whether a square matrix with no zero rows necessarily has an RRE form equivalent to the identity matrix.
  • Participants provide examples, such as the matrix $$\begin{pmatrix}1 & 1 \\ 1 & 1\end{pmatrix}$$, to illustrate that even matrices with no zero rows can have RRE forms that are not identity matrices.
  • There is a suggestion to perform row operations on the matrix to see the resulting RRE form, which leads to a matrix that is not the identity matrix, thus serving as a counterexample.
  • One participant expresses understanding after performing the reduction, asking if the RRE form of a square matrix with no zero rows would then be an identity matrix.
  • Another participant affirms that under certain conditions, such as having no zero rows, the RRE form can indeed be an identity matrix, while also prompting further examination of pivot rows and columns.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the RRE form of a square matrix must be an identity matrix, as multiple competing views remain regarding the conditions under which this may or may not be true.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss specific examples and counterexamples, highlighting the importance of conditions such as the presence of zero rows or the invertibility of the matrix, which remain unresolved in terms of their implications for the RRE form.

Bipolarity
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I am wondering about the relation between RRE forms and identity matrices. Consider the reduced row echelon form of any square matrix. Must this reduced row echelon form of the matrix necessarily be an identity matrix?

I would suppose yes, but can this fact be proven? Could anyone provide an outline of the proof, or provide the link? Thanks much.

BiP
 
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Bipolarity said:
I am wondering about the relation between RRE forms and identity matrices. Consider the reduced row echelon form of any square matrix. Must this reduced row echelon form of the matrix necessarily be an identity matrix?
Of course not. As a trivial example, take a square zero matrix, i.e. a square matrix such that all its elements are zeros. Or, more generally, any square marix with at least one zero row, or column. In fact, you can easily write down lots of square RRE matrices which are not identity matrices.

In general, a square matrix A is row equivalent to (i.e. its RRE is) the identity matrix of he same size if and only if A is invertible.
 
Last edited:
Erland said:
Of course not. As a trivial example, take a square zero matrix, i.e. a square matrix such that all its elements are zeros. Or, more generally, any square marix with at least one zero row, or column. In fact, you can easily write down lots of square RRE matrices which are not identity matrices.

In general, a square matrix A is row equivalent to (i.e. its RRE is) the identity matrix of he same size if and only if A is invertible.

What if I add the condition that the matrix square has no zero rows? Then is it necessarily the case that its RRE form is equivalent to the identity matrix (of the same size)?

BiP
 
Bipolarity said:
What if I add the condition that the matrix square has no zero rows? Then is it necessarily the case that its RRE form is equivalent to the identity matrix (of the same size)?
No, for example
$$\begin{pmatrix}1 & 1 \\ 1 & 1\end{pmatrix}$$
 
AlephZero said:
No, for example
$$\begin{pmatrix}1 & 1 \\ 1 & 1\end{pmatrix}$$

But how is that matrix in RRE form? The leading 1 in the second row is not strictly to the right of the leading 1 of the first row?

BiP
 
Of course it's not in RRE form!

You asked if a square matrix with no zero rows always has an identity matrix for its RRE. That matrix has no zero rows. Reduce that matrix to RRE form and see what you get.

If you do that yourself, you might see WHY your idea is wrong (and even discover the right idea), which is more useful than just being told "your idea is wrong".
 
AlephZero is saying to start with that matrix and then do row operations to put it into RRE form. You will find that you end up with a matrix that is not the identity matrix. Since the given matrix has no zero rows, it is a counter example to your modified question.
 
I see! Thanks! The reduction gave me $$\begin{pmatrix}1 & 1 \\ 0 & 0\end{pmatrix}$$

What about if the RRE form of the matrix is a square matrix with no zero rows? In that case is the RRE form become an identity matrix?

BiP
 
Bipolarity said:
What about if the RRE form of the matrix is a square matrix with no zero rows? In that case is the RRE form become an identity matrix?
Yes, that's right. It is easily verified if we carefully examine the definition of RRE and its consequences in the case of a square matrix. What about pivot rows and columns and zero rows in that case?
 

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