Regarding Nucleon Penetration into stationary plasma cloud

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interaction of a proton beam with a stationary plasma cloud, focusing on the theoretical aspects of nucleon penetration, collision probabilities, tunneling, fusion processes, and energy loss mechanisms. Participants explore various equations and models relevant to these phenomena, as well as the conditions necessary for achieving self-sustaining fusion reactions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about equations or models to calculate the probability of colliding nuclei and the probability of tunneling and fusing.
  • There are references to the Bethe Bloch equation as a starting point for understanding particle interactions and the Bragg curve.
  • Questions are raised regarding the mechanisms that cause particles in the beam to slow down and lose energy, with suggestions of both quantum and classical explanations.
  • Discussion includes the need for a solid understanding of Maxwell's equations and related laws for directing and controlling the proton beam.
  • Participants express interest in the conditions for achieving self-sustaining fusion reactions, with mention of the Lawson Criterion as a relevant formula.
  • Some participants reflect on their learning experiences and the complexity of the topics, noting that they found the material more intuitive after thorough reading and cross-referencing.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the relevance of the Bethe Bloch equation and the Lawson Criterion, but the discussion includes multiple viewpoints on the mechanisms of energy loss and the specifics of fusion conditions, indicating that some aspects remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about their understanding and the need for further reading, indicating that their grasp of the material is still developing. There is also mention of the potential for confusion and the importance of foundational knowledge in the subject matter.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for individuals interested in nuclear physics, particle physics, fusion research, and those exploring theoretical models related to particle interactions and energy transfer in plasma environments.

RatTrap85
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TL;DR
Is there a set of generalized equations or accepted model for the behavior of a proton beam entering a plasma cloud? In particular with regards to fusion.
Imagine you have a proton beam with sufficient speed say Xc to overcome the Coulomb Barrier for the element in use. The beam collides with a cloud of that element with density (rho) and thickness (l). Obviously you wouldn't achieve 100% fusion and if the cloud is dense enough the beam will not exit the cloud. So a few questions since this in not my area of expertise, but I think that the answers to these question may inform a project in another area that I am working on.

Are there equations or models that could be used to calculate the probability of colliding nuclei?
What equations would be used to calculate the probability of tunneling and fusing?
Are there equations or models that could determine the depth of penetration of the beam into the cloud for the nuclei that don't collide?
What process actually causes the particles in the beam to slow and bleed off energy? Is it a form of quantum drag? Is it more classical like a perfectly inelastic collision?

This is for a thought experiment so feel free to dump thoughts on this. One never knows where an answer might be found.
 
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The answer is yes there are equations for the above.
Start with Bethe Bloch equation

See here
https://pdg.lbl.gov/2004/reviews/passagerpp.pdf
This will give you the needed details to provide the Bragg curve.

Just an aside a common coordinate system involving beams such as cyclotrons etc is Frenet-Serret frame just an awareness as some papers use this frame but forget to mention it
 
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Mordred said:
The answer is yes there are equations for the above.
Start with Bethe Bloch equation

See here
https://pdg.lbl.gov/2004/reviews/passagerpp.pdf
This will give you the needed details to provide the Bragg curve.

Just an aside a common coordinate system involving beams such as cyclotrons etc is Frenet-Serret frame just an awareness as some papers use this frame but forget to mention it
Thank you very much for the rapid reply. That may be the single most helpful response I have ever seen in a forum. Concise, non-condescending, and actually addressed the questions. What a great experience for my first post to this forum.

Thank you again.

Now hopefully I have the brain power to comprehend what I am reading, but I am not as sharp as I once was.
 
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Your welcome and welcome to PF. Feel free to ask any questions on it. If I can't answer this site has a decent collection of experts that may be able to help as well.

For directing and controlling the proton beam your going to need a good understanding on Maxwell equations in particular Lorentz force law, magnetic force law, Biot Savart, Amperes law and Gauss law.
 
Mordred said:
Your welcome and welcome to PF. Feel free to ask any questions on it. If I can't answer this site has a decent collection of experts that may be able to help as well.

For directing and controlling the proton beam your going to need a good understanding on Maxwell equations in particular Lorentz force law, magnetic force law, Biot Savart, Amperes law and Gauss law.
Per one of your suggestions, I was reading up on Bethe and thinking I should probably dust off some of my old books to refresh my memory of a great many things. You are correct. I am going to have to do some refresher reading before I dive into this fully. Afterall if the foundation isn't solid then any insights drawn will be questionable at best.

I am certain that I will have more questions but I do not yet know what I don't know, so I will hold off until I can formulate the needed questions.

The material you sent and information you suggested has certainly been useful and the over eager over achiever engineer in me wants to just take that little bit and run with it. Fortunately time has taught me humility and more reading and learning is needed before I start trying to incorporate what I have read into my design.

again thank you for the guidance.
 
Mordred said:
Your welcome and welcome to PF. Feel free to ask any questions on it. If I can't answer this site has a decent collection of experts that may be able to help as well.

For directing and controlling the proton beam your going to need a good understanding on Maxwell equations in particular Lorentz force law, magnetic force law, Biot Savart, Amperes law and Gauss law.
One more question if I may. Where should I look for information on the conditions of fusion. Obviously a self sustaining reaction on earth is the Holy Grail and would be nice but has proven to be almost impossible. On the other hand H-bombs prove that run away uncontrolled temporarily self sustaining reactions are a possibility and a real danger to avoid. I would like to know under what conditions that could occur so I can be well clear of that danger. I mean it is a thought experiment so there is no actual risk at all, but I like to be thorough. I guess the fusion equivalent of fissions critical mass, I'd hate to have a screw driver slip somewhere, stand there scratching my head, and saying "well that's it" lol
 
You are truly amazing. Thank you
 
Mordred said:
For self sustaining (ignition) the formula that details this is the Lawson Criterium.

https://www.visionofearth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/LawsonCriterion.pdf
I wanted to thank you again. After a few days of reading and refreshing and then reading this material I think I have a pretty firm grasp on it. Surprisingly simple once you get the derivation and source for all the terms. I'm not sure that the materials I was reading lend themselves to teaching others particularly well but they did fine for me, after a fair amount of cross reading. And having to research down several other theories, models, and expressions.

Somehow I thought these topics would be far more complicated than they actually are. Once I had a chance to stop being over whelmed and digest the information I found it to be quite intuitive. At the current moment I have several projects going that I am overseeing but once I wrap them up in the next 3 months, I am going to see what fruits my thought experiment yield. I will post here to let you know how it goes, and of course if humility kicks me in the head again and questions overwhelm me, I will post them.

Just wanted to thank you again. The value of your direction and assistance cannot be over stated. Thank you.
 
  • #10
Your more than welcome and good luck
 

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