Relation between the track of a particle and its energy loss

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around simulating the attenuation of charged particles in matter using a Monte Carlo method, specifically focusing on the relationship between particle trajectories and energy loss mechanisms such as collisions and bremsstrahlung. Participants explore various formulas, including the Bethe-Bloch formula, and discuss the challenges of implementing these concepts in a simulation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes using the formula ## N (x) = N_0 e^{-\mu x} ## for simulating particle attenuation but acknowledges it is a first approximation.
  • Another participant suggests incorporating the Bethe-Bloch formula for energy loss due to collisions, expressing uncertainty about how to relate energy loss to particle trajectories.
  • There is a discussion about the relevance of different particle types and energies, with one participant mentioning electrons of 10 keV.
  • Multiple scattering is highlighted as an important factor that may affect the simulation.
  • One participant questions the necessity of using Geant4, expressing a desire to create a simulation independently, while others emphasize the complexity and effort behind Geant4.
  • Concerns are raised about the difficulty of verifying numerical code and the importance of comparing results with established references like Geant4.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the approach to simulating particle trajectories and energy loss, with no consensus on the best method or the necessity of using Geant4. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the optimal way to relate energy loss to particle motion.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention the need to calculate energy loss over small paths and update particle velocities, indicating a reliance on iterative calculations. There are unresolved questions about the variable 'y' and its relation to the simulation, as well as the complexities involved in numerical verification.

Mr rabbit
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Hi,

I'm trying to simulate the process of charged particles attenuation in matter (like this) by a montecarlo-metropolis algorithm in Python. I thought that I could use for the number of particles at thickness ##x## the formula ## N (x) = N_0 e^{-\mu x} ##, so the probability in this case will be the exponential. What is left is easy.

This is the first approximation, but is not full precise. I want more: I want to consider the energy loss by collisions with the atoms of the medium and the bremsstrahlung, but only the first thing by now. I think I need to use the Bethe-Bloch formula

## \displaystyle S = -\frac{dE}{dx} = \frac{4 \pi}{m_e c^2} \frac{n z^2}{\beta ^2} \left( \frac{e^2}{4 \pi \epsilon _0} \right) ^2 \left[ \ln{\left( \frac{2 m_e c^2 \beta ^2}{I (1-\beta ^2)} \right)} -\beta ^2 \right] ##

But I don't know how. I mean: I want to plot the tracks of the incident particles like in the animation I show at the top of the post, but how can I relate the energy loss with the trajectory of the particle? Maybe solving ## \displaystyle E = 1/2 m \left( \frac{d \vec{r}}{dt} \right) ^2 ##? What formula or formulas does Geant4 use?

Thank you.
 
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Mr rabbit said:
What formula or formulas does Geant4 use?

You can download it and see exactly what it does for the exact situation you are interested in. It's open source.
 
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Which particle types and which energies do you consider? There are cases where an exponential function can be useful (but then secondary particles might be relevant) and there are cases where Bethe-Bloch is relevant, but rarely both together.
Mr rabbit said:
but how can I relate the energy loss with the trajectory of the particle?
Calculate its energy loss over some small path, then calculate its new velocity at the new location, update the energy loss estimate, calculate the next step.
Multiple scattering can be important as well.

What's wrong with Geant4 which can do all that?
 
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mfb said:
Which particle types and which energies do you consider?
I was thinking about electrons of 10 keV

mfb said:
Calculate its energy loss over some small path, then calculate its new velocity at the new location, update the energy loss estimate, calculate the next step.
Multiple scattering can be important as well.
What should I do with the variable y? Another Bethe-Bloch? I am a bit lost with that.
mfb said:
What's wrong with Geant4 which can do all that?

I don't know how to use it. And it's interesting for me to do the simulation by myself.
 
Mr rabbit said:
What should I do with the variable y? Another Bethe-Bloch? I am a bit lost with that.
What is y? The motion orthogonal to the track? That has nothing to do with Bethe-Bloch, that will mainly come from scattering.

Geant4 has a manual and various examples.
 
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mfb said:
What's wrong with Geant4 which can do all that?
Mr rabbit said:
I don't know how to use it. And it's interesting for me to do the simulation by myself.

Whoh!

This is kind of like coming onto an automotive forum and saying "I want to build a car from scratch, including mining the metals and growing the rubber. And you guys are going to give me all the help I need, right?"

Thousands of person-years of effort have gone into Geant to make it what it is. You really want to be learning how to use it rather than trying to rebuild it from scratch.
 
Also, don't underestimate the difficulty of verifying numerical code. At the very least you'll want to compare the results of your code with a reference, and Geant4 seems to be a very solid one as such. So you'll want to know how to generate references for your test cases anyway.
 
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