Replacing the shape of the track of accelerator particles

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the potential for changing the shape of particle accelerator tracks from circular to more complex geometries, such as knots with multiple crossings. Participants explore the implications of such changes on space efficiency and energy loss, as well as the future of particle accelerators following the LHC.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants recall that particle accelerator tracks are typically circular, noting that both circular and linear designs exist.
  • One participant suggests that changing the shape to knots could allow for more distance in less space, although they express uncertainty about the construction of such designs.
  • Another participant questions the practicality of tighter turns in particle accelerators, raising concerns about energy loss and the feasibility of such designs.
  • A later reply mentions that for proton machines, synchrotron losses may not be significant, suggesting that space efficiency could be a potential benefit, but emphasizes the challenge of designing sufficiently strong magnets for high energy levels.
  • One participant argues that increasing the complexity of the track shape at a constant curvature radius could lead to longer overall lengths and increased construction complexity and costs.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the feasibility and benefits of changing the shape of accelerator tracks. There is no consensus on whether such changes would be advantageous or practical, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on assumptions about energy loss, magnetic field strength, and the implications of track shape complexity on construction and efficiency.

MathematicalPhysicist
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From what I can recall the shape of tracks of particle accelerator is circular.

Is it possible to change this circular shape in future particle acclerators, to shapes like some knots (with more than one crossing)?
to gain more distance in less space, I don't know how construct it, but it's a pitty that after the LHC is done its work we won't see more particle accelartors like this project in the near future.
 
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MathematicalPhysicist said:
From what I can recall the shape of tracks of particle accelerator is circular.
There are both circular and linear accelerators.

They are circular because getting the particles around the curve is hard and needs strong magnetic fields (for protons) or the particles lose too much energy if the bend is too sharp (electrons). A circle is the optimal shape if you want to have a large curvature radius.

The LHC has four points where the beams cross each other, it could have more if there would be more experiments to use them.

MathematicalPhysicist said:
but it's a pitty that after the LHC is done its work we won't see more particle accelartors like this project in the near future.
The ILC could start operation years before the LHC retires, and there are several concepts how the LHC infrastructure can be used for more advanced projects later.
 
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MathematicalPhysicist said:
From what I can recall the shape of tracks of particle accelerator is circular.

Is it possible to change this circular shape in future particle acclerators, to shapes like some knots (with more than one crossing)?
to gain more distance in less space, I don't know how construct it, but it's a pitty that after the LHC is done its work we won't see more particle accelartors like this project in the near future.

And make more tight turns and lose even more energy in the process? Why would anyone want to do that?

Zz.
 
ZapperZ said:
And make more tight turns and lose even more energy in the process? Why would anyone want to do that?

Zz.

Well, for a proton machine where synchrotron losses aren't a big deal yet, conceivably you gain on space. The real issue would be designing a magnet strong enough to get to appreciable energies, which is of course already the limitation in building high energy hadron machines.
 
You gain space relative to what? The energy is limited by the product of magnetic field strength and curvature radius. Making the track more complicated at the same curvature radius just increases the length of the shape and the overall size of the device, which makes the construction more complex and more expensive.
The length of circular accelerators is a disadvantage - you want to keep them as short as possible for the designed energy.
 

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