News Right to Bear Arms: US Laws Explained

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The Second Amendment grants U.S. citizens the right to keep and bear arms, but the interpretation of "arms" remains debated, with discussions on whether it includes modern firearms like machine guns. The amendment implies that while individuals can own weapons, the government has the authority to regulate them, leading to ongoing debates about the balance between regulation and rights. Public carrying of weapons is generally restricted, with concealed carry permitted under specific regulations. The discussion also touches on the historical context of the militia and the founders' intentions regarding citizens' ability to defend against tyranny. Ultimately, the interpretation of the Second Amendment continues to evolve, reflecting societal changes and legal challenges.
  • #101
Schrodinger's Dog said:
allowing peole to carry fully automatic weaponry is a bit much don't you think?

You keep going back to that "fully automatic" arguement.

Since you are'nt an American and are completely ignorant of the law I will enlighten you.

It is legal for American citizens in certain states to posses "fully automatic" weapons.
For example, you cannot have an automatic weapon in California or New York but it is permitted in Arizona, Oregon and several other states.

If you wish to possesses a fully automatic weapon it is required of you to acquire a "class 3 liscence" before you can purchase weapons that would otherwise be restricted to law enforcement.
Then you pay a fee PER WEAPON similar to a hunting stamp.
I would also like to add that I frequently go to the range an plink with my guns.
I also shoot IPSC matches and have spent ALOT of time around other shooters from allover the western US.
I have seen (1) guy with an automatic weapon... ONE.
The vast majority of people at the range have bolt action hunting rifles.

The perception you have of Americans walking around with Machine guns is completed unfounded AND IGNORANT.

You also keep argueing that Americans should not have an "Arsenal"
Who does? Anyone that starts to gather large quantities of weapons gets the governments attention pretty quickly (Waco, Ruby Ridge) and then the FBI shows up and kills all the women and children... <----- and you say we don't need guns :rolleyes:

When push comes to shove, I'd rather have an AK47 to shove with.
 
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  • #102
Schrodinger's Dog said:
I find it doubtful you can do anything about your murder rate or your gun laws. I think your stuck with them and I think your liable to be stuck with them for a very long time, especially if the sort of replies I see on this thread are any indication of your reasoning? It's a complicated issue made more complicated by the kind of irrational banter I've seen so far passed of as fair argument, guns don't kill people obviously ignorance does.

I own 2 AK47 assault rifles, A Shotgun and 2 Pistols.
I also keep over 1,000 rounds of ammunition on hand for each weapon.
These weapons are sufficient to arm my family should we ever need to defend ourselves. (don't say "from what?" neither you nor I know what the future will bring)

Oddly, I have never killed anyone... GO FIGURE.

There are many gun owners on this message board.
I doubt any of them have ever killed anyone.

What percentage of gun owners do you believe just go out and kill people?
 
  • #103
Well I don't have any sort of ridiculous perception like that all I said was why should people need to own fully automatic weapons, not, every american are ak47 wielding nutcases, I have no idea where that came from. And it's kind of like a weird situation people look at their country and say gun violence is out of hand, but to actually do anything about it as far as I can see is unconstitutional, does this not strike you as a vicious circle?
 
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  • #104
Schrodinger's Dog said:
people look at their country and say gun violence is out of hand, but to actually do anything about it as far as I can see is unconstitutional

I don't think gun violence is out of hand.
You think gun violence is out of hand in the US, but you don't live here.
Art thinks gun violence is out of hand in the US, but he doesn't live here either.

People that DO live in America and think gun violence is out of hand, can lobby the governement to make changes.
If enough people feel the same way, the law will be changed.
Only problem is, the over whelming majority of Americans have no desire to give up our right to bear arms.
Democracy.
 
  • #105
What percentage of gun owners do you believe just go out and kill people?

A good reason why you don't need a gun to defend yourself.
 
  • #106
well obviously you don't I didn't mean you personally but you do have an extremely high mortality rate atributable to gun crime. Now whether you yourself see this a problem is of course entirely up to you but I don't think you can ignore the fact that you havea lot of dead people who would be alive if you didn't have that right to bear arms, which is what the rest of the world finds bemusing. Why have so many guns of such deadly calibre when you don't need them? Can you honestly say you will ever need two ak47 2 shotguns and 2 handguns to defend your familly? Wouldn't a semi automatic be enough? Where do you live Beirut?

I think what americans fail to acknowledge is the rest of the western world will probably spend there entire lives without seeing a gun much less gun violence. We look at America and say why so violent? Becuase we just don't see anything like what your country sees anywhere else in the democratic west. You can understand why we look awry at your culture and it's morbid interest in guns? It makes no sense to us? You might not agree with us but you have to ask yourself is it really that necessary and could you live without it? If the answer is no then feel free to carry on shooting each other? And I don't mean the average American, I mean the people who do shoot each other the small minority that actually are Automatic toting citizens.
 
  • #107
every american are ak47 wielding nucases, I have no idea where that came from.

Bowling for Columbine. A movie which is mostly bull****, but does have a few good points.
 
  • #108
A good reason why you don't need a gun to defend yourself.

That is not an arugment. In fact, that is just pure nonsense. What did I tell you Entropy? If you don't like guns don't own one.

I think what americans fail to acknowledge is the rest of the western world will probably spend there entire lives without seeing a gun much less gun violence.

Thats just it, we don't have to acknowledge to anyone but ourselves why we have the right to own guns.

We look at America and say why so violent? Becuase we just don't see anything like what your country sees anywhere else in the democratic west. You can understand why we look awry at your culture and it's morbid interest in guns? It makes no sense to us?

Who cares what makes sense to you, it's not your country.

You might not agree with us but you have to ask yourself is it really that necessary and could you live without it? If the answer is no then feel free to carry on shooting each other?

No, we don't agree with you nor can we live without it.

And I don't mean the average American, I mean the people who do shoot each other the small minority that actually are Automatic toting citizens.

Man, you need to stop making these wild comments. The average citizen that owns an automatic weapon does not go around shooting people. Man I'm getting sick of your comments. Do you know the most commonly used gun in crimes are the HAND GUN! . Despite what you may want, the United States is not part of the EU. You don't make up our laws or run our country. Respectfully, why don't you worry about your own crime problems.
 
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  • #109
Look, just stop it already.

Myth #1 "Guns are only used for killing"
Compared to about 35,000 gun deaths every year, 2.5 million good Americans use guns to protect themselves, their families, and their livelihoods - there are 65 lives protected by guns for every life lost to a gun - five lives are protected per minute - and, of those 2.5 million protective uses of guns, about 1/2 million are believed to have saved lives.

Myth #3 "There is an epidemic of gun violence"
Even their claim of an "epidemic of violence is false. That claim, like so many other of their claims, has been so often dogmatically repeated that few think to question the claim by checking the FBI and other data. Homicide rates have been stable to slightly declining for decades except for inner city teens and young adults involved with illicit drug trafficking. We have noticed that, if one subtracts the inner city contribution to violence, American homicide rates are lower than in Britain and the other paragons of gun control. [2]

The actual causes of inner city violence are family disruption, media violence, and abject poverty, not gun ownership. In the inner city, poverty is so severe that crime has become a rational career choice for those with no hope of decent job opportunities. [4]

Vicious predators who ignore laws against murder, mayhem, and drug trafficking routinely ignore those existent American gun laws. No amount of well-meaning, wishful thinking will cause these criminals to honor additional gun laws.

Advocates of gun control rarely discuss the enforceability of their proposals, an understandable lapse, since even police state tactics cannot effectively enforce gun bans. As evidence, in Communist China, a country whose human rights record we dare not emulate, 120,000 banned civilian guns were confiscated in one month in 1994.[25]

Existent gun laws impact only those willing to comply with such laws, good people who already honor the laws of common decency. Placing further impediments in the path of good citizens will further disproportionately disarm those good people - especially disarming good, poor people, the people who live in the areas of highest risk.

If "better" data are forthcoming, we are ready to reassess the public policy implications. Until such time, the data suggest that victim disarmament is not a policy that saves lives.

What does save lives is allowing adult, mentally competent, law- abiding citizen access to the safest and most effective means of protection - guns. [26,27]

US Bureau of Justice Statistics show that guns are the safest and most effective means of defense. Using a gun for protection results in fewer injuries to the defender than using any other means of defense and is safer than not resisting at all. [3] The myth that "guns are only used for killing and the myth that "guns are dangerous when used for protection melt when exposed to scientific examination and data. The myths persist because they are repeated so frequently and dogmatically that few think to question the myths by examining the mountains of data available. Let us examine the other common myths.

Its nice that you care about voilence in our country, but your arguing out of ignorance.
 
  • #110
That is not an arugment. In fact, that is just pure nonsense.

It makes prefect sense. Since your life is not danger from people who own guns. Why own one yourself, other than out of paranoia?

What did I tell you Entropy? If you don't like guns don't own one.

Why don't you stop condescending to people for one second and actually listen to what their saying? I'm arguing that there is no rational reason to own a gun for protection in America.
 
  • #111
Why don't you stop condescending to people for one second and actually listen to what their saying? I'm arguing that there is no rational reason to own a gun for protection in America.

Stop arguing out of ignorance. Go read about guns and crime prevention before arguing out of emotion. All I have heard from you so far is opinion.
 
  • #112
well that's the third time someone has completely misinterpreted my point, what I meant was certain criminal elements who use sub mahcine guns, not the average citizen which I made perfectly clear by distiguishing between the two.

Americans make me laugh you question anything they do and they get outraged as if you have no right even to ask the question. It's like slagging of George Bush, they do it all the time but anyone else criticises their gov there like wtf do you know stay out damn it, your not an American your point of view is invalid who cares damn it? It's hilarious:smile:

OK I'm just saying America is frighteningly inward looking at the best of times and will not accept criticism from the rest of the world, if your happy with one of the highest gun crime rates in the western world then by all means live with it. Just don' think you don't deserve criticism from more peaceful countries or that somehow no one is allowed to question your beliefs. Amercanism is not a religion, you can't quote bible and verse as to why your ideas are justified.

Criticism that is constructive is not a personal assault on your rights freedoms or beliefs, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything just trying to give you an idea of what some of the rest of the world believe.
 
  • #113
Man, you need to stop making these wild comments. The average citizen that owns an automatic weapon does not go around shooting people. Man I'm getting sick of your comments. Do you know the most commonly used gun in crimes are the HAND GUN! . Despite what you may want, the United States is not part of the EU. You don't make up our laws or run our country. Respectfully, why don't you worry about your own crime problems.

Because this thread is about YOUR crime problem, by all means start a new one about the EU's crime problem.
 
  • #114
Criticism that is constructive is not a personal assault on your rights freedoms or beliefs,

Don't lie to my face. Your very own criticism wants to get rid of my constitutional rights. That I take as HIGHLY offensive. No one has missed your point, your just not making any point. Everyone has shown you the data that indicates that your claims on assult weapons is flat out wrong.


Because this thread is about YOUR crime problem, by all means start a new one about the EU's crime problem.

Then give a solution that does not violate our constitutional rights. Then well talk.
 
  • #115
He is making very vaild points... You just cant/wont listen to them.

If your constitutional rights to own guns is part of the problem, why can't we address that?

Try and calm down, I don't see anyone here, personally attacking you.
 
  • #116
I'm not lying about anything? What are you talking about, if I was saying change your damn antiquated claptrap now or face the consequences, I could see your point, as mentioned before I'm just suggesting ideas, not dictating policy changes. You can disagree with me but don't call me a liar? Or I'll have to kick over the table and fill you full of lead, man I watched two many cowboy films as a kid:biggrin:
 
  • #117
Then give a solution that does not violate our constitutional rights.

Putting aside whether or not gun ownership is right or not for a moment. Simply because something is in the constitution does not make it inheriently right. Yes, you have a right to bear arms WHILE it is the constitution, but the debate is whether or not it should be in the constitution. Do you understand that? Although the constitution is designed to be very concrete, it is not absolute, it is open to change so that it is possible to create a "more perfect union".
 
  • #118
I think Entropy's point is that if you need arms in order to protect yourself, then there is a crime problem. Otherwise, with no crime problem, the argument that you need arms to protect yourself is just paranoia. Is that the crux of what you (Entropy) are saying? (Not that I necessarily agree or disagree with the various statements.)
 
  • #119
Schrodinger's Dog said:
I'm not lying about anything? What are you talking about, if I was saying change your damn antiquated claptrap now or face the consequences, I could see your point, as mentioned before I'm just suggesting ideas, not dictating policy changes. You can disagree with me but don't call me a liar? Or I'll have to kick over the table and fill you full of lead, man I watched two many cowboy films as a kid

Antiquated to who? You are the only one who seems to think so. The majority of Americans do not. What gun are you going to shoot me with? I can shoot you though, because you don't have a gun. Your crime is dangerously low anyways :biggrin:

Entropy said:
Putting aside whether ofr not gun ownership is right or not for a moment. Simply because something is in the constitution does not make it inheriently right. Yes, you have a right to bear arms WHILE it is the constitution, but the debate is whether or not it should be in the constitution. Do you understand that? Although the constitution is designed to be very concrete, it is not absolute, it is open to change so that it is possible to create a "more perfect union".

And the majority of Americans do not feel that way. Why can't you get that in your head? I already told you, if you hate it so much go Amend the constitution and see how far you get.

No, daveb, that's not a valid point. Your right is paranoia, that's the whole point of the 2nd amendment. So that if the government got out of control or that we were attacked, the people could stand up for themselves.


There is not a major movement against guns in this country. Most people who own guns abide by the law. People have the right to shoot their guns at a shooting range or to go hunting no? Are you going to take away their right? You don't have any right to do that. Stop using guns as your scapegoat to think you will solve all the problems by eliminating them. Why don't you argue a valid point for a change. Like proper training so that it is much harder for criminals to steal guns from people who LEGALLY own them and pose no threat to society. Why don't you argue against the ILLEGAL trafficking of guns in urban areas. Why don't you argue against minors getting their hands on guns. Why don't you arguet against irresponsible dealers who sell guns to people that are not legally allowed to buy a gun. Why don't you argue that there are not enough checks to see if a person is suddenly buying too many guns at one time, implying that they might be illegally selling them on the streets. Why don't you stop wasting everyones time by thinking taking away guns is a magic solution and that limiting our fundamental rights in the process is ok.

He is making very vaild points... You just cant/wont listen to them.

If your constitutional rights to own guns is part of the problem, why can't we address that?

Try and calm down, I don't see anyone here, personally attacking you.

He proposes to limit citizens rights to gun ownership. I have already explained to you that the 2nd amendment does not say what kind of guns you can own. It simply says you can own ANY gun. Why should I listen to him when his argument is a strawman?

You don't live in America, so how can you possibly tell me about the problems of assult weapons? Don't you think if assult weapons were such a big problem there would be crimes on the news every night showing said weapons? I have yet to see my local news report about the growing problem due to assult weapons, and I live in a major urban area. So give me a break with your strawman argument.
 
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  • #120
Why should I listen to him when his argument is a strawman?
h[PLAIN]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_argument[/URL]
A straw-man argument is the practice of refuting a weaker argument than an opponent actually offers. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to your opponent.

Nobody has misrepresented your views! Or created a strawman agument, Care to explain your aligation?
 
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  • #121
I have searched for the result of neutral opinion pools on retaining or repealing the second amendment. I have not yet found a good, credible source on the net. I have only seen informal ones, and possibly biased polls that are published by groups with a known agenda, and they contradict each other. Does anyone have a link to reputable figures that show what the level of support or opposition actually is (or has been over the years)?
 
  • #122
I think it's a good thing that some of us keep firearms on hand. The uncertainty (criminal types not knowing who has one) probably keeps us all a bit safer from the home-invasion-type crimes. That said, I would ask people to please NOT buy a gun if they are not going to learn how to use it safely, and practice periodically to keep proficient in its use.
 
  • #123
For the record. I would Ban the lot of them, apart from Guns for Sport (and I mean Hunting).

I remember before 9/11 I was in LA, I went into a Gun shop, and I found a gun without any metal parts, it broke down into a nice bag, and when broken down didnt look anything like a gun. :rolleyes:

I suppose it is your right to own a Gun like that, it is also the right of a want to be terrorist to own a gun like that...

The agument I aggree with is that if you ban guns, less people have them, crinimals feel less inclined to carry a gun for "petty" crimes, and less people get killed in the long run...

The agument that in America the 2nd amendment is ok because it allows you as people to rise up against the goverment. Well you wouldn't have a chance if the Military is on the side of the Goverment. So IMHO its a fallacy of an argument

Judging by some of the responces in this thread, guns won't go away in America, that's your choice, and I respect it. But doesn't mean I aggree with it.
 
  • #124
The agument that in America the 2nd amendment is ok because it allows you as people to rise up against the goverment. Well you wouldn't have a chance if the Military is on the side of the Goverment. So IMHO its a fallacy of an argument
See how well the army is dealing with the Iraq insurgency. Who's got the fallacy?
 
  • #125
Good point, well presented :)

--NT--
 
  • #126
cyrusabdollahi said:
No, daveb, that's not a valid point. Your right is paranoia, that's the whole point of the 2nd amendment. So that if the government got out of control or that we were attacked, the people could stand up for themselves.
Whoa, hold on there...I never said that was my point...I queried whether that was Entropy's point.
selfAdjoint said:
See how well the army is dealing with the Iraq insurgency. Who's got the fallacy?
And how reluctant might a soldier be to fire upon one of his own countrymen? Of course the opposite could be true if the soldier feels the countryman is wrong.
 
  • #127
Anttech said:
I remember before 9/11 I was in LA, I went into a Gun shop, and I found a gun without any metal parts, it broke down into a nice bag, and when broken down didnt look anything like a gun. :rolleyes:
You were badly misinformed. There was quite a bit of hysteria when Glock started producing pistols with composite frames, because they would be "invisible" in security checks. That was simply not true. Glock pistols have over a pound of metal in them. There is a law banning the manufacture of pistols that don't have a prescribed amount of metal in them, and nobody has managed to develop a chamber or barrel using something other than metal. A Parkerized Glock might look ""all plastic" to the uninitiated, but they are certainly not.

http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/plastic_gun.HTM
 
  • #128
You were badly misinformed.

LOL.. I SAW it with my own eyes. I also picked it up (It was very light), and the man offered to sell it to me! It was not a Glock, and it was not a pistol but a rifle of sorts...
 
  • #129
selfAdjoint said:
See how well the army is dealing with the Iraq insurgency. Who's got the fallacy?
That really doesn't have anything to do with the quote you were replying to - the US is a foreign force in Iraq.

That said, the quote isn't all that realistic no matter how you slice it: It is very much likely that if there was a situation so bad that a high fraction of the population wanted to overthrow the government, a high fraction of the military would agree. The military are ordinary citizens - not mindless automotons.

And the other side of the coin is that there are few scenarios where a real uprising would be possible in the US.
 
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  • #130
I used to work as an auctioneer of firearms and handled many thousands of them over the years. There is no pistol or rifle available anywhere that is made entirely of composite materials, least of all the bolt, chamber and barrel, which have to withstand tremendous pressures, and although there are some expensive subtitute metals that could be used, these parts are almost always made of hardened steel. Do a Google search on plastic guns and see what you get.
 
  • #131
Anttech said:
LOL.. I SAW it with my own eyes. I also picked it up (It was very light), and the man offered to sell it to me! It was not a Glock, and it was not a pistol but a rifle of sorts...
I find it hard to believe that a rifle barrel can be made to look like anything but a rifle barrel. All guns have common elements that must be present in order for them to be functional weapons. It doesn't take a lot of training to spot those pieces.
 
  • #132
russ_watters said:
I find it hard to believe that a rifle barrel can be made to look like anything but a rifle barrel. All guns have common elements that must be present in order for them to be functional weapons. It doesn't take a lot of training to spot those pieces.
True. It doesn't matter how much you tear down a firearm, I could look at an X-ray of your luggage, identify the parts, and probably tell what model of gun is in there. The hysteria over "plastic guns" was way overblown, and the Glocks are now the standard-issue sidearm for lots of police departments here in the US.

As an aside: one of the few uses of composites in barrel manufacture was the Winchester Win-lite barrel, which was a very thin-walled steel barrel reinforced with fiberglass wrapping. The resulting shotguns were lighter than normal, but the bore of the barrel was still steel, as was the receiver, bolt, slide and the entire trigger assembly.
 
  • #133
daveb said:
And how reluctant might a soldier be to fire upon one of his own countrymen? Of course the opposite could be true if the soldier feels the countryman is wrong.
Recall the U.S. Civil War? Sure, one would hope it would give someone pause before taking up arms against their own countrymen (and women), but if the cause were serious enough, history tells us it can happen.

Besides, nobody said the government wouldn't fight back, or that the citizens would necessarily win, just that they have the right to try. Indeed, the Revolutionary War and the Civil War provide two contrasting examples, one in which the citizens were able to successfully separate from the ruling government to form their own nation, and one in which they attempted to secede and failed in their attempt.

Also, battles and wars aren't necessarily won by the side that is right, but by the side that has the most military strength, in terms of personnel, equipment, strategy, natural resources, fortifications, defendable borders, persistance, and sometimes dumb luck.
 
  • #134
Moonbear said:
Also, battles and wars aren't necessarily won by the side that is right, but by the side that has the most military strength, in terms of personnel, equipment, strategy, natural resources, fortifications, defendable borders, persistance, and sometimes dumb luck.

Heh.. sort of like Vietnam? Yeah, US lost there. There is another side to fighting a war within your own country and that is logistics. You can't win a war when your fuel supplies are intercepted, and cut off. With a fuel distance of 285 miles, an M1A1 tank needs a whole lot of fuel to cruise around the country, fighting the resistance. So its very likely that if you have enough disgruntled citizens (say in the ballpark of 50 million), you can effectively take over the entire fuel supply, communications, roads, bridges, and water supplies. Without the tanks and air support there is no quick victory, and in the case of Civil War today, there won't even be one.
 
  • #135
russ watters said:
selfAdjoint said:
See how well the army is dealing with the Iraq insurgency. Who's got the fallacy?
That really doesn't have anything to do with the quote you were replying to - the US is a foreign force in Iraq.

The US army is an unpopular force fighting a dissident population. Yes that population has the extra incentive that the USA is a foreign force, but we can imagine equal grievances among a US population, and aside from that I don't see why the example is improper.

Also, comparisons to the US Civil War are not useful, as that was a war between some of the states and the rest (the Southern name for it is still the "War Between the States" and the original Nothern name was "The War for the Union"). This is not at all the same as the case of a dissident population rising against their government, or a tyrannical government trying to oppress the population.
 
  • #136
daveb said:
And how reluctant might a soldier be to fire upon one of his own countrymen?

Remember Kent State? And they were unarmed college students.

All that is required is an us and them mentality.
 
  • #137
selfAdjoint said:
the Southern name for it is still the "War Between the States"

As a proud Southerner I can tell you that in the South we still refer to the Civil war as "The War of Northern Aggression" :wink:
 
  • #138
Ah yes, I forgot that one. But Tarheel, your name suggests you are from North Carolina, and IIRC, many proud southerners in that state were Union supporters. (My own ancestors of that generation included enlisted men in both armies).

This is of course OT. Back on theme, I do not own a gun but I repeat my stance: national gun database automatically updated whenever a gun changes hands legally, and concealed carry. This meets my personal definition of "A well-regulated (unorganized) militia. We can't do European type low gun-ownership because we don't have their history (translation, most of us have backgrounds of free citizens going back generations, not as peasants/proles/ etc. who didn't have guns while the aristocracy did).
 
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  • #139
Moonbear said:
Recall the U.S. Civil War? Sure, one would hope it would give someone pause before taking up arms against their own countrymen (and women), but if the cause were serious enough, history tells us it can happen.

Also, battles and wars aren't necessarily won by the side that is right, but by the side that has the most military strength, in terms of personnel, equipment, strategy, natural resources, fortifications, defendable borders, persistance, and sometimes dumb luck.
I think that last part kinda contradicts the first part. It is sometimes said that the Civil War was won by the North because of the Gatling Gun. That was the most sophisticated weapon at the time. Today, we have tanks, planes, missiles, etc. A purely civilian insurgency (which the South was not, btw) wouldn't have such things and wouldn't stand a change against a determined military.

But see my caveat below about the military being composed of ordinary citizens...
 
  • #140
I haven't weighed-in on the topic itself and I apologize if I cover old ground because of my absence, but...

I don't support the second amendment in its current form/interpretation. I think that it is an anachronism that no longer applies to the way our country works. There are two basic arguments for it: revolting and protection:

While the revolutionary war was a popular insurgency, the Civil War was not - it was fought between two trained armies. The idea of a popular insurgency actually defeating a committed modern military today is just silly. Remember, we're not talking about an Iraqi insurgency or USSR vs Afghanistan situation - can you imagine a popular insurgency advancing on and trying to take Washington DC? It just isn't possible.

As for basing the right to bear arms on protection, protection and safety go hand in hand and need to be weighed against each other. It is one thing to keep a shotgun in your closet to protect your home and quite another to keep a Glock in your purse. With the shotgun you have a decent chance of protecting your home - with that Glock in your purse, odds are good that you'll die or you'll kill trying to use it against someone also armed with a gun.

And that's to say nothing of gun accidents and gun crime itself. Many gun statistics and analogies thrown around by gun advocates are straw-men. Some of the more common (some seen in this thread):

-Cars kill more people than guns. Car manufacturers put considerable effort into making cars safer. Gun manufacturers put considerable effort into making guns deadlier (more on that later...). At the same time, cars require testing, licensing, safety inspections, etc. Those things should be bare minimum requirements for gun ownership: even if something is a right, that doesn't mean it isn't regulated. The gun lobby has succeeded in preventing even the most basic of product safety legislation on guns:
Most consumers are shocked to learn that their refrigerators, cars, and children's teddy bears are more regulated than guns. The objective of MCC’s Firearms Safety Project is to redefine gun policy to include the view that gun safety can be regulated. The history of consumer product regulation teaches that a significant number of deaths, injuries and illnesses can be prevented as a result of health and safety standards. The consumer product approach has worked to reduce product-related death and injury for thousands of other products, we believe it will work with guns.

Guns kill or injure more than 90,000 Americans each year. Yet, guns are virtually the only consumer product not regulated for health and safety. Congress has given regulatory authority to federal agencies to assure that almost all consumer products in America are safe. For example, the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) regulates the safety of nearly 15,000 consumer products used in or around the home. But no federal agency has the power to ensure that guns manufactured and sold are safe.
http://www.massconsumers.org/gunsregulation.html

-Guns are for protection, not killing (often with stats, as provided by Cyrus). Absurd deflection. Just because a nuclear weapon doesn't get launched doesn't mean its purpose isn't death. Guns (most guns) are designed for killing. Most guns that aren't designed for killing are designed for practice for killing. That's their purpose - their reason for existence.

-Gun violence isn't that bad. Cyrus's "Myth #3". Just read the quotes:
Homicide rates have been stable to slightly declining for decades except for inner city teens and young adults involved with illicit drug trafficking.
A declining problem, sure, but just because it is declining doesn't make it not a problem.
We have noticed that, if one subtracts the inner city contribution to violence, American homicide rates are lower than in Britain and the other paragons of gun control.
Come again? If we subtract most of our gun crimes from our gun crime stats, our gun crime stats are not as bad as Britains? How is that a fair way to compare them?
The actual causes of inner city violence are family disruption, media violence, and abject poverty, not gun ownership.
And that matters, why? That doesn't mean the crimes don't still happen and matter.
Cyrus said:
Why don't you argue a valid point for a change. Like proper training so that it is much harder for criminals to steal guns from people who LEGALLY own them and pose no threat to society. Why don't you argue against the ILLEGAL trafficking of guns in urban areas. Why don't you argue against minors getting their hands on guns. Why don't you arguet against irresponsible dealers who sell guns to people that are not legally allowed to buy a gun. Why don't you argue that there are not enough checks to see if a person is suddenly buying too many guns at one time, implying that they might be illegally selling them on the streets.
All of those are great ideas. But would the NRA support such ideas? The NRA's lobbying power - the NRA writes many of our gun laws itself, specifically to make them useless - is simply too great for meaningful change. In fact, many of those things you list, the NRA (and a great many gun owners), would argue are unConstitutional.

I want to make myself clear: I'm not against using guns for protection in limited circumstances. I'm not against hunting. I'm not against target shooting. But there are serious flaws to the logic behind the sanctity of the 2nd Amendment in its present form/interpretation.
 
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  • #141
turbo-1 said:
True. It doesn't matter how much you tear down a firearm, I could look at an X-ray of your luggage, identify the parts, and probably tell what model of gun is in there. The hysteria over "plastic guns" was way overblown, and the Glocks are now the standard-issue sidearm for lots of police departments here in the US.

As an aside: one of the few uses of composites in barrel manufacture was the Winchester Win-lite barrel, which was a very thin-walled steel barrel reinforced with fiberglass wrapping. The resulting shotguns were lighter than normal, but the bore of the barrel was still steel, as was the receiver, bolt, slide and the entire trigger assembly.

I concede.. seems I was duped :redface:
 
  • #142
A purely civilian insurgency (which the South was not, btw) wouldn't have such things and wouldn't stand a change against a determined military.

I aggree

This is why I feel that the right carry arms in todays America cannot be justified by saying "We need to have the populas armed to overthrow our goverment, if indeed it came to that" If this is the reason, the ammendment need to be updated to "We as a populas need the right to have surface to air missels, Tanks, Fighter Jets, etc etc, to overthrow our goverment"
 
  • #143
Besides as I said before the right to revolution is not really a right, revolutions by definition are illegal. Overthrowing any government by force of arms is illegal so to have it as a lawful right makes little sense. It's like giving people the right to vote in a democracy and allowing them to enforce this right with arms.

If a country wants to overthrow it's governement, then eventually it will, whether by force or by vote, either way a right to do it is an irellevance, after all when the law was written what had they just done? Did they need a right to do it? Not really.

I hearby give you the right to breathe to think and to disagree with your government, should these "rights" be denied by a tyranical dictator I give you the right to rise up for yourself and to overthrow said government with arms. Oh well that's alright then, cause before that I was figuring I'd be spending time in jail otherwise:rolleyes: :biggrin:
 
  • #144
Anttech said:
This is why I feel that the right carry arms in todays America cannot be justified by saying "We need to have the populas armed to overthrow our goverment, if indeed it came to that" If this is the reason, the ammendment need to be updated to "We as a populas need the right to have surface to air missels, Tanks, Fighter Jets, etc etc, to overthrow our goverment"

I hope you don't mind if I jump in here. I don't own a gun or think our government needs to be overthrown but... I think history has shown us many examples of governmental overthrow without fighting the entire military. Some are done by assasinations, some are just started by small arms and another country helps out with the big stuff. (although this is usually the role of the US)
 
  • #145
russ_watters said:
I think that last part kinda contradicts the first part. It is sometimes said that the Civil War was won by the North because of the Gatling Gun. That was the most sophisticated weapon at the time.
The Gatling gun was not used by the US military until 1865, and saw its first major use in the slaughter of native Americans. Custer screwed up and left his back at Ft. Lincoln, or the Little Big Horn might have turned out a bit differently.

Dr Gatling developed his gun early in the 1860's, but the originals had lots of problems that had to be resolved before the design would be accepted by the military. The gun saw very limited us in the CW. The South lost due to lack of resources and due to some errors in judgement at critical junctions in the war. For instance, had Stuart's cavalry been properly at Lee's disposal just prior to Gettysburg, the Union might have suffered a disastrous loss there, allowing the Confederate army the opportunity to proceed east toward Washington and Baltimore.
 
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  • #146
Schrodinger's Dog said:
Besides as I said before the right to revolution is not really a right, revolutions by definition are illegal. Overthrowing any government by force of arms is illegal so to have it as a lawful right makes little sense. It's like giving people the right to vote in a democracy and allowing them to enforce this right with arms.

If a country wants to overthrow it's governement, then eventually it will, whether by force or by vote, either way a right to do it is an irellevance, after all when the law was written what had they just done? Did they need a right to do it? Not really.

I hearby give you the right to breathe to think and to disagree with your government, should these "rights" be denied by a tyranical dictator I give you the right to rise up for yourself and to overthrow said government with arms. Oh well that's alright then, cause before that I was figuring I'd be spending time in jail otherwise:rolleyes: :biggrin:
Overthrow isn't necessarily the point but rather protection from the government if necessary. The law does not state that US citizens have the right to overthrow their government obviously. I doesn't even say that you have the right to resist the government. Nothing in there makes it legal to do either of these things. It DOES however insure that the citizens are capable of owning the arms necessary to defend themselves from any group or government that would move them to organize against it. If the people did not have the arms to defend themselves then any such group that itself is well armed would find little resistence.
 
  • #147
russ_watters said:
I think that last part kinda contradicts the first part. It is sometimes said that the Civil War was won by the North because of the Gatling Gun. That was the most sophisticated weapon at the time. Today, we have tanks, planes, missiles, etc. A purely civilian insurgency (which the South was not, btw) wouldn't have such things and wouldn't stand a change against a determined military.

But see my caveat below about the military being composed of ordinary citizens...
I don't see the contradiction, nor how your point differs...or maybe you don't mean it to differ.

I offered my interpretation of the second amendment as it is written. I didn't actually state my full opinion with regard to it (I believe I've stated that more elaborately in past threads on gun control, and it's very similar to your preferences for stricter training, testing, and licensing requirements, without banning).

The only way a civilian insurgency could stand up against the military at this point would be if they quietly infiltrated it and gained access to the equipment from among the ranks...basically, they'd have to get a lot of people to enlist and then turn traitor. Having a collection of shotguns, or even machine guns, in the basement isn't going to help much against a tank, so I agree, that such a purpose is rather outdated.
 
  • #148
Moonbear said:
The only way a civilian insurgency could stand up against the military at this point would be if they quietly infiltrated it and gained access to the equipment from among the ranks...basically, they'd have to get a lot of people to enlist and then turn traitor. Having a collection of shotguns, or even machine guns, in the basement isn't going to help much against a tank, so I agree, that such a purpose is rather outdated.
I think the general idea is more one of resistence than insurgency. I'm sure that if we were to see the institution of Martial Law in the US we would also see quite a few militias organize to protect themselves. We already know that if the government decided to quash domestic resistence with force it would only become that much more of a bad guy and lose that much more support to the resistence. The US military would be forced to use kid gloves when dealing with such situations. Even though the military would likely "win" in the end they would still lose a lot of ground in other ways.
 
  • #149
It is interesting to listen to the opinions of folks from other countries.

One thing to consider about us Americans is the fact that a lot of blood was spilled in order for us to retain the rights we currently have. This is a reason some will get very offended if you speak against that which many paid the ultimate price for. It's a freedom we will always exercise and appreciate.

We could do away with them (guns) and say they served their purpose at a particular time and are no longer needed, but why? Gun crime is not an epidemic in this country. And if it were, then all the more reason a responsible citizen should retain the right to own one. A responsible citizen is not the threat to society, the criminal is.

FYI A convicted felon loses his or her right to bear arms for the rest of their life in this country.
 
  • #150
deckart said:
It is interesting to listen to the opinions of folks from other countries.

One thing to consider about us Americans is the fact that a lot of blood was spilled in order for us to retain the rights we currently have. This is a reason some will get very offended if you speak against that which many paid the ultimate price for. It's a freedom we will always exercise and appreciate.

We could do away with them (guns) and say they served their purpose at a particular time and are no longer needed, but why? Gun crime is not an epidemic in this country. And if it were, then all the more reason a responsible citizen should retain the right to own one. A responsible citizen is not the threat to society, the criminal is.

FYI A convicted felon loses his or her right to bear arms for the rest of their life in this country.
Yeah and this stops criminals from acquiring guns obviously:wink:

Fact is your just all in love with your gun culture? I doubt there is any political or common sense reason to own guns any more, other than the fact that your entire country all has the right to bear arms, it's kind of a self defeating circular argument. By all means if your happy with the highest gun crime rates in the western world, and this to you means that gun crime is at acceptable levels then fine. Just don't ask us to make any sense of your right to bear arms, to us it looks like nonsense. Entirely your look out though, I'm glad I'll most likely never get to see a GSW even though I work in a hospital and have regualr contact with the emergency department. But whatever.:smile:

You guys carry on shooting each other, maybe its a Darwinian way of reducing the criminal element in your country? Who knows:wink:

I just looked at some satistics by 100,000 population America has a 5% hangun murder rate England has .05? I am so glad I don't live in America? That's just scarey.

For every person who dies from hand gun related crime in England 100 do in America? Not out of control, no not even close, I understand:confused:
 
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