Rolling motion mechanics & ideal economical gearbox ratios

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mechanics of rolling motion and the ideal gearbox ratios for a Subaru EE20 Diesel motor swap into a car, focusing on achieving economical highway cruising speeds. Participants explore the implications of gear ratios, torque curves, and performance trade-offs between different engine types and configurations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the high RPM at which the Subaru motor operates at 75 mph, suggesting that it seems excessive given the calculated thrust and drag forces.
  • Another participant argues that the short final drive ratio of 4.444:1 is designed for quick acceleration rather than fuel economy, indicating a trade-off in design priorities.
  • A different viewpoint suggests that diesel engines typically have lower final drive ratios compared to gasoline engines to compensate for their lower peak RPMs.
  • One participant proposes changing the final drive ratio to 3:1 to maintain optimal RPMs for cruising while expressing concerns about potential impacts on off-road performance.
  • There is speculation about the potential benefits of adding an electric supercharger to enhance torque delivery across a broader RPM range.
  • Participants express confusion regarding the observed RPMs in videos compared to calculated values, questioning the accuracy of the gear ratios and their implications for performance.
  • One participant emphasizes the need to clarify the ultimate goals for the vehicle, whether for fuel economy or off-road capability, suggesting that achieving both may not be feasible.
  • Discussion includes clarification on what constitutes an overdrive gear, with one participant noting that the 4th, 5th, and 6th gears in the 6MT are indeed overdrives.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the optimal gear ratios and the intended use of the vehicle, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved with no consensus on the best approach.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention various assumptions regarding engine performance, gear ratios, and vehicle weight, which may influence their calculations and conclusions. There is also uncertainty about the implications of changing the final drive ratio on performance in different driving conditions.

Schtoogie
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Greetings, mechanical engineers of Physicsforums,

I have been struggling with a particular problem calculating an ideal motor RPM for economical highway cruising.

The motor I am looking at is the Subaru EE20 Diesel motor. Its torque curve can be found here: https://subdiesel.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/powergraphsubaru.png

I am considering this engine for a swap into my car for its great low-RPM grunt and economy. But with the stock 6 speed transmission, in top gear 75 mph comes at 3600 RPM -- just about the peak of the power band, and at around 290 N-m, or 80% peak torque of the motor. I have calculated the peak thrust at the wheels (from 1800-2400 motor RPM) to be around 1000 Newtons, while drag at 75 miles per hour (33.5 m/s) is around 700 Newtons. So clearly the motor running at that RPM for that speed (33.5 m/s) is sufficient to overcome drag on a perfectly flat plain. So why the heck is the overdrive gear set for such a high engine speed? Surely the 110 kW (148 hp) of power at that speed far exceeds what is required to move the car, isn't it? The car I would be swapping it into weighs around 16.5 kN, or 3700 pounds. This is a rough estimate for my own weight and a bunch of gear in the back. Am I missing something?

Additional note: The final drive of the car is 4.444:1. I calculated that with a 3:1 final drive, I could travel at 73 mph at 2400 RPM, which is close enough for my needs... or is it? Again, I feel like I am missing something. I know diesel power bands are far narrower than petrol ones, but I have trouble accepting that Subaru would design a transmission to basically never exceed 80 miles per hour. The CVT, which I would much rather have considering the narrow power band, has ratios closely matching the 6MT as well and has the potential to achieve a far greater gear spread, so I am not sure what to think from their perspective.
 
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It's not just the transmission, it's the combination of your gearbox and the rather short final drive ratio of 4.444:1. That's drag racer type ratios, intended to make quick starts off the line for short dashes, fuel economy be danged. What's good for pulling stumps may not cut it for long-distance economy cruising on the highway.

This article discusses some of the trade-offs between different gear-engine-transmission combinations:

http://www.badasscars.com/index.cfm...ct_id=398/category_id=13/mode=prod/prd398.htm

IMO, you want to keep your new Subaru diesel operating in that band of 1800-2400 RPM as much as possible, because the torque falls off the cliff rather quickly outside this band.
 
Take a look at the data specifications for the same car fitted with diesel = CI, and gasoline = SI, engines. The final drive ratio is usually lower with CI used than when when SI is used. That compensates for the lower peak RPM of the CI engine. As turbochargers and common rail injection systems have improved, the performance of CI has moved closer to SI.

Increasing the rolling radius of the tyres can give a significant improvement when converting from SI to CI. But it is safer to lower the final drive ratio than to increase tyre rolling radius, since tyre rolling radius has unfortunate brake performance implications.
 
Right, this is why I was thinking that a quick and easy way to get a big economy boost would be to swap the differential from a 4.444:1 to a 3:1 or lower (which may need to be machined, I need to look into this more). This would keep my highway cruising speed in 6th gear between 55 mph and 72 mph at that 1800-2400 RPM torque plateau, which is what I want. Oddly enough, the final drive on the diesel is actually SHORTER than the final drive on a gas -- 4.444 for the 6MT diesel, 4.111 for the CVT diesel, and 3.900 for the CVT gas.

I just did some very rough calculations accelerating in 1st gear (3.454:1) and with a final drive of 3:1 based on average torque from 1000-3600 RPM, which is about 265 N-m. It yielded around 7 m/s^2 or about 0.7g with stock wheels. That's still pretty drivable in the city, but I am not sure how badly this would impact off-road performance, namely the ability to get out of mud or even to pull a trailer.

I wonder if the addition of an electric supercharger would spread the peak torque out more, namely have it come on earlier? The alternator for the diesel is rated at 170 amps, so I'm sure it could put out the juice.

Another odd thing: VW and Subaru's diesel drivetrains have similar gearing (Subaru is shorter on all but 5th and 6th), so for a comparison of highway cruising RPM I calculated about 3400 RPM highway at 70 mph. But after watching some enthusiast hypermiling videos, they are cruising at closer to 2000 RPM at these speeds in the very same car! I pulled the gear ratios and tire width directly from the VW site for the model that was being tested! What gives?

Watching 0-60 mph videos for the Subaru diesel, they are in 3rd gear at 60 mph and around 3500 RPM. The gearing is 1.062 with a final drive of 4.444. This calculates to over 5700 RPM. Am I missing something?...
 
It's still not clear what your ultimate goal is with this car. Do you want to make an economical car for cruising on the highway, or do you want a car which performs well off-road and/or towing something around? You can have one or the other, but I don't think you'll be able to come up with both simultaneously.

You should post the gear ratios for all the speeds in your 6-speed tranny. Shouldn't this box have an overdrive in 6th gear, maybe even in 5th gear, too?
 
My goal is 45 MPG at 75 MPH, but I will take a hit there if it means the difference between getting across town in a snow storm or not.

The gear ratios are, for the 6MT:
1: 3.454
2: 1.888
3: 1.062
4: 0.785
5: 0.634
6: 0.557
R: 3.636
F: 4.444

For the CVT it is 3.505:1 to 0.582:1 with a final drive of 4.111. They are geared very similarly and in fact the 6MT is more economical for cruising.

I don't see anything about an overdrive for either 5th or 6th gears. Assuming these numbers posted are the only ones in the box, the engine should be revving a lot higher than it is in the few videos I can find online. I am very confused.
 
Schtoogie said:
My goal is 45 MPG at 75 MPH, but I will take a hit there if it means the difference between getting across town in a snow storm or not.

The gear ratios are, for the 6MT:
1: 3.454
2: 1.888
3: 1.062
4: 0.785
5: 0.634
6: 0.557
R: 3.636
F: 4.444

For the CVT it is 3.505:1 to 0.582:1 with a final drive of 4.111. They are geared very similarly and in fact the 6MT is more economical for cruising.

I don't see anything about an overdrive for either 5th or 6th gears. Assuming these numbers posted are the only ones in the box, the engine should be revving a lot higher than it is in the few videos I can find online. I am very confused.
An overdrive is where the transmission gear ratio is less than 1:1. For the 6MT box, the 4th, 5th, and 6th gears are all overdrives.
 

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