I Sabine Hossenfelder says time dilation is due to acceleration

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Sabine Hossenfelder says time dilation is due to acceleration in the twin's paradox. Is this true?

At 12 minutes into this video ,

Hossenfelder states, "This is the real time dilation. It comes from acceleration."

Looking at the equations for time dilation, time dilation comes from velocity, not acceleration.

How can Hossenfelder state, "This is the real time dilation. It comes from acceleration."?
 
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Without having seen the video: take two observers A and B. As long as their velocities are constant (i.e. their mutual velocity is constant), the principle of relativity holds: as observers they are symmetric, and hence both will measure time dilation at each others clocks. If the situation wasn't symmetric, they could detect "who really moves", which is prohibited by the principle of relativity: all inertial observers are equivalent/no absolute motion exists. If you want to ask "who really ages the most", you have to break that symmetry. You do that by bringing A and B together to let them compare their clocks. At least one of them has to change her velocity for that. I.e.: she has to accelerate. Say, we choose for this observer A. Accelerating, her wordline will in general have a different length in spacetime as compared to B. And this worldline length is her elapsed proper time (and the same for B).

So in that sense I can understand Hossenfelder's statement.
 
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haushofer said:
Without having seen the video: take two observers A and B. As long as their velocities are constant (i.e. their mutual velocity is constant), the principle of relativity holds: as observers they are symmetric, and hence both will measure time dilation at each others clocks. If the situation wasn't symmetric, they could detect "who really moves", which is prohibited by the principle of relativity: all inertial observers are equivalent/no absolute motion exists. If you want to ask "who really ages the most", you have to break that symmetry. You do that by bringing A and B together to let them compare their clocks. At least one of them has to change her velocity for that. I.e.: she has to accelerate. Say, we choose for this observer A. Accelerating, her wordline will in general have a different length in spacetime as compared to B. And this worldline length is her elapsed proper time (and the same for B).

So in that sense I can understand Hossenfelder's statement.
So are you agreeing with Hossenfelder's statement that "This is the real time dilation. It comes from acceleration." What are the physical equations that show acceleration causes time dilation?
 
Epic Mythology said:
So are you agreeing with Hossenfelder's statement that "This is the real time dilation. It comes from acceleration." What are the physical equations that show acceleration causes time dilation?
We had a long discussion about this before. What Hossenfelder is calling "real time dilation" is what's usually called "differential aging". It isn't really due to acceleration - it's perfectly possible to construct scenarios where two objects undergo the same acceleration but end up with different ages.
 
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Ibix said:
We had a long discussion aboutthis before. What Hossenfelder is calling "real time dilation" is what's usually called "differential aging". It isn't really due to acceleration - it's perfectly possible to construct scenarios where two objects undergo the same acceleration but end up with different ages.
So then you disagree with Sabine Hossenfelder who says time dilation is due to acceleration in the twin's paradox, as she states in the video: "This is the real time dilation. It comes from acceleration."
 
Epic Mythology said:
Sabine Hossenfelder says time dilation is due to acceleration in the twin's paradox. Is this true?

At 12 minutes into this video ,

Hossenfelder states, "This is the real time dilation. It comes from acceleration."

Looking at the equations for time dilation, time dilation comes from velocity, not acceleration.

How can Hossenfelder state, "This is the real time dilation. It comes from acceleration."?

There are two concepts that are subtlely but significantly different: time dilation and differential ageing.

Time dilation is most definitely not caused by acceleration in any meaningful way.

There is, in fact, a version of the twin paradox without acceleration. It's on the Wikipedia page, I believe.

In flat spacetime, differential ageing requires some sort of real (proper) acceleration. The amount of differential ageing, however, is directly related to the velocity profiles of the clocks involved. And only indirectly relates to the acceleration profiles. Saying acceleration causes differential ageing is a It's a bit like saying acceleration earns you a speeding ticket!
 
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PeroK said:
There are two concepts that are subtlely but significantly different: time dilation and differential ageing.

Time dilation is most definitely not caused by acceleration in any meaningful way.

There is, in fact, a version of the twin paradox without acceleration. It's on the Wikipedia page, I believe.

In flat spacetime, differential ageing requires some sort of real (proper) acceleration. The amount of differential ageing, however, is directly related to the velocity profiles of the clocks involved. And only indirectly relates to the acceleration profiles. Saying acceleration causes differential ageing is a It's a bit like saying acceleration earns you a speeding ticket!

So then you disagree with Sabine Hossenfelder who says time dilation is due to acceleration in the twin's paradox, as she states in the video: "This is the real time dilation. It comes from acceleration."
 
Epic Mythology said:
So then you disagree with Sabine Hossenfelder who says time dilation is due to acceleration in the twin's paradox, as she states in the video: "This is the real time dilation. It comes from acceleration."
Yes. In flat spacetime someone has to accelerate for twins to meet twice, but the effect depends on the velocity and how much time is spent at different velocities, not on acceleration. Working in inertial coordinates, the elapsed time for one twin is ##\int\sqrt{1-v^2(t)/c^2}dt##. Do you see any acceleration term in there?
 
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  • #10
Epic Mythology said:
So are you agreeing with Hossenfelder's statement that "This is the real time dilation. It comes from acceleration." What are the physical equations that show acceleration causes time dilation?
There are other versions of the Twins paradox that makes it hard to say that acceleration causes time dilation.
It's probably better to say that acceleration violates the assumptions that allow the simplest calculation. In the usual scenario of the Twins paradox, it is possible to take acceleration into account in a more complicated calculation and get the answer that agrees with the simple calculation of the "stationary" twin.
 
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  • #12
Epic Mythology said:
Is Sabine aware that she is wrong? Her videos reach millions.
She must understand relativity. The problem is an "explanation" that happens to give the right answer in one simple example and not thinking through all the implications for other circumstances. Which we do think through because we spend our spare time fielding questions inspired by such bad explanations...

A huge problem with all popsci is oversimplification.
 
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  • #13
Epic Mythology said:
How can Hossenfelder state, "This is the real time dilation. It comes from acceleration."?
She can state it because she is making a pop-sci video which has no peer review and so she can get away with saying whatever she feels like.

It is not a coincidence that such videos are not considered suitable for answering questions on this site (although they certainly produce many questions)

Imagine that you have a triangle with vertices ##A##, ##B##, and ##C##. Now, we know from the triangle inequality that ##AB+BC>AC## but we do not say that the extra length “comes from” the bend at ##B##. The fact that the path ##ABC## is bent at ##B## allows us to distinguish between it and path ##AC##, it breaks the symmetry, but the extra length comes from the whole path, not just the bend at ##B##.

Similarly, with relativity proper acceleration is a bend in a worldline, and proper time is the length of a world line. So the extra length (time) doesn’t come from the bend (acceleration).
 
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  • #14
Dale said:
She can state it because she is making a pop-sci video which has no peer review and so she can get away with saying whatever she feels like.

It is not a coincidence that such videos are not considered suitable for answering questions on this site (although they certainly produce many questions)

Imagine that you have a triangle with vertices ##A##, ##B##, and ##C##. Now, we know from the triangle inequality that ##AB+BC>AC## but we do not say that the extra length “comes from” the bend at ##B##. The fact that the path ##ABC## is bent at ##B## allows us to distinguish between it and path ##AC##, it breaks the symmetry, but the extra length comes from the whole path, not just the bend at ##B##.

Similarly, with relativity proper acceleration is a bend in a worldline, and proper time is the length of a world line. So the extra length (time) doesn’t come from the bend (acceleration).
You write, "She can state it because she is making a pop-sci video which has no peer review and so she can get away with saying whatever she feels like."

Do you believe that influential and popular public science educators have a duty to speak the truth and be correct?
 
  • #15
Epic Mythology said:
Do you believe that influential and popular public science educators have a duty to speak the truth and be correct?
The problem is that "being correct" means using maths. And then nobody reads it.
 
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  • #16
Ibix said:
The problem is that "being correct" means using maths. And then nobody reads it.
So basically it is better to say things that are not true than to say things that are true, just as long as one uses no maths?
 
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  • #17
Epic Mythology said:
You write, "She can state it because she is making a pop-sci video which has no peer review and so she can get away with saying whatever she feels like."

Do you believe that influential and popular public science educators have a duty to speak the truth and be correct?
I do. And I think that she and Brian Greene in particular frequently fail to fulfill that duty.

Other pop sci authors do make mistakes or poor explanations, but those two in particular are notoriously bad.

Anyway, perhaps we can focus on the actual physics rather than the personal criticisms?
 
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  • #18
Epic Mythology said:
So basically it is better to say things that are not true than to say things that are true, just as long as one uses no maths?
I don't write popsci. And there's plenty of room for people giving poor explanations, or ones of only limited validity, without the ethical failing you seem to be implying.
 
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  • #19
Epic Mythology said:
Is Sabine aware that she is wrong? Her videos reach millions.

You can try to make her aware for only 2€/Month (plus VAT):
Sabine said:
Just here to let me know you like my videos and you want to see more? Then that's the tier for you.
https://www.patreon.com/Sabine?fan_landing=true

A similar, old discussion on her (free) backreaction blog was closed.
Sabine said:
COMMENTS ON THIS BLOG ARE PERMANENTLY CLOSED. You can join the discussion on Patreon.
Source:
https://backreaction.blogspot.com/2...omment=1378658543377&m=1#c1341223111415144705
 
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  • #20
Epic Mythology said:
So then you disagree with Sabine Hossenfelder who says time dilation is due to acceleration in the twin's paradox, as she states in the video: "This is the real time dilation. It comes from acceleration."
I don't have time to look at the video. In any case, the twin paradox is technically about differential ageing; not time dilation.
 
  • #21
Epic Mythology said:
Do you believe that influential and popular public science educators have a duty to speak the truth and be correct?
It makes no difference what I consider to be "correct". They write what they write and say what they say. Nothing I think or say can change that.

But, if you want to learn science as an academic subject (or to the point where you can solve problems yourself), you have to put aside the popular science books and videos. Note that in this case, if you understood SR, then you would be able to form your own opinion about SH's video.
 
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  • #22
Epic Mythology said:
Is Sabine aware that she is wrong? Her videos reach millions.
Give her a call and see if she listens to you.
 
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  • #23
Epic Mythology said:
Sabine Hossenfelder says time dilation is due to acceleration in the twin's paradox. Is this true?
To pile on in agreement w/ what has already been said, NO, it is not true and you would do well to stop paying attention to pop-sci presentations and study the actual physics.

Pop-sci presentations at their best are attempts to INTEREST people in science, not TEACH them science. There is a huge difference. And that's pop-sci at its best. At the more normal end, the goal is simply to make a buck by selling books or whatever.
 
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  • #24
malawi_glenn said:
Give her a call and see if she listens to you.

She will probably listen:
Sabine said:
Talk To A Scientist
...
To set up an appointment, please send an email with the topic(s) that you are interested to discuss to expert.science.consult@gmail.com and wait for a response email containing a formal introduction of the service terms. Typical response times are 1-5 business days.

Live session terms vary with each consultant in our network. Fees can vary accordingly, but are approximately US$50 per 20 minutes. The final offering depends on the format of the consultation.
Source:
https://backreaction.blogspot.com/p/talk-to-physicist_27.html
 
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  • #25
OP, there seems to be a lot of hostility in this and your recently closed thread. What exactly is your goal?

If it;s to tell us that somebody is wrong on the internet, this is not a surprise. That ship sailed a long time ago.

If it's to learn relativity, the best way is to stop watching Youtube videos, pick up a copy of Taylor and Wheeler and start working through it.
 
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  • #26
Sagittarius A-Star said:
I sometimes tell my students that if they want a reply for free, they can send me an email - but I will only respond when I have time.
If they want a quick reply, they should send money to me via bank-transfer and ask the question in the message box for the transfer - then I will answer right away!
 
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  • #27
I agree that she's wrong to say that the twin effect is solely due to acceleration, but I think what Sabine might be saying is that:
Given two time-like separated events, where observers are present at both events, then the proper time measured along the world-line of a non-inertial observer is generally less than the proper time between the events as measured along the world-line of an inertial observer.
Just my 2 pennies :smile:
 
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  • #28
DAH said:
Given two time-like separated events, where observers are present at both events, then the proper time measured along the world-line of a non-inertial observer is generally less than the proper time between the events as measured along the world-line of an inertial observer.
That would be correct if she said it, yes (although you could say "always" rather than "generally"), but I don't recall her saying that...
 
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  • #30
DAH said:
I agree that she's wrong to say that the twin effect is solely due to acceleration, but I think what Sabine might be saying is that:
Given two time-like separated events, where observers are present at both events, then the proper time measured along the world-line of a non-inertial observer is generally less than the proper time between the events as measured along the world-line of an inertial observer.
Just my 2 pennies :smile:
That may indeed be what Hossenfelder intended. I'm even inclined to think that it is, in which case I will criticize it as poor pedagogy (a matter of personal taste) rather than bad physics or an outright false statement.

The problem in this thread is that she wasn't speaking with that level of precision (this is an occupational hazard of writing popularizations) so what she actually said can be interpreted in different ways, and some of these are indeed bad physics or just plain wrong.
 
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  • #31
Epic Mythology said:
Do you believe that influential and popular public science educators have a duty to speak the truth and be correct?

What are your own thoughts about this? Once again, your thread is derailing into a cascade of questions that you ask - but you always seems to fail to answer the questions that are directed to you.

You can find a nice explanation what time dilation is in this post https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...e-experiences-which-time.1051231/post-6870973

All other "effects" of time discrepancies should imo NOT be called time dilation in order not to be confusing.
 
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  • #32
Epic Mythology said:
Sabine Hossenfelder says time dilation is due to acceleration in the twin's paradox. Is this true?

At 12 minutes into this video ,

Hossenfelder states, "This is the real time dilation. It comes from acceleration."

Looking at the equations for time dilation, time dilation comes from velocity, not acceleration.

How can Hossenfelder state, "This is the real time dilation. It comes from acceleration."?

The problem here is being unspecific which acceleration is meant. As I stated in the previous thread about this video:

The confusion starts when accelerating reference frames (which can have clocks going at different rates at different locations) are conflated with the proper acceleration of the clocks themselves (which doesn't affect the clock rate).


Sabine Hossenfelder's statements at timestamp 18:00 are clearly contradicting the clock hypothesis:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Clock_hypothesis
 
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  • #33
Epic Mythology said:
So are you agreeing with Hossenfelder's statement that "This is the real time dilation. It comes from acceleration." What are the physical equations that show acceleration causes time dilation?
There isn't one in the sense you want. The clock hypothesis states that time dilation only depends on velocity.

It's like calculating dL of a line segment, integrating them to find L between two fixed points a and b, and noticing that L depends on the change of direction of the line segments dL. This change of direction is reflected in the dx and dy parts in every dL.

Similarly, an acceleration changes v(t), and hence the elapsed proper time. But this elapsed proper time does not explicitly depend on the acceleration.

Edit: plus what Dale says in #13.
 
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  • #34
Yes, and the clock hypothesis has been confirmed by observation for amazing accelerations. I don't know, why you make such a fuss about some pop-sci youtube video...
 
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  • #35
vanhees71 said:
I don't know, why you make such a fuss about some pop-sci youtube video...
If I had a coin for each time a pop-sci article or video were... let's say "not accurate" - I would be rich!
 
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  • #36
Ibix said:
Yes. In flat spacetime someone has to accelerate for twins to meet twice, but the effect depends on the velocity and how much time is spent at different velocities, not on acceleration. Working in inertial coordinates, the elapsed time for one twin is ##\int\sqrt{1-v^2(t)/c^2}dt##. Do you see any acceleration term in there?

This is a tricky thing that most relativists get but that to a first approximation, no popular physics writers understand. (Dr. Hossenfelder is a relativist and understands this very well.)

Let's say we have two clocks at a particular moment at rest with respect to each other, but one is accelerating. Thus far there is NO experimental evidence that the clocks' rates are different. For example, one can consider muons (whose lifetime is very short if they're at rest) moving in straight lines at high velocities, and compare them with muons moving in circular storage rings at Fermilab and elsewhere at the same velocity, and they have the same observed lifetime, (given by the usual time dilation formula involving the square root of ##1 - (v/c)^2##) even though the ones moving in circles are experiencing gigantic accelerations and the others are not. So acceleration all by itself does not affect clock rates. (The hypothesis that acceleration by itself does not influence the clock rate is called "the clock hypothesis". There is no theoretical basis for it thus far that I am aware of.) So far, so good.

However, it is known that clocks on an upper level of an apartment building run at a tiny bit faster than those on the ground level; the higher you go, the faster the clock rate. This is not due to the gravity, exactly (the gravitational field is nearly the same), but to the gravitational potential, which is in this case the product of ##g## and the height, ##y##, divided by ##c^2##. (For folks who remember some physics, gravitational potential means "gravitational potential energy per kilogram".) Google "gravitational red shift" for more about this. The equation comparing clock rates is this:

##\Delta t_{\text{higher}} = \Delta t_{\text{lower}}(1 + (gy/c^2))##

If this effect were not taken account of by GPS satellites, your phone apps telling you where you were would be very badly incorrect!

Finally, there is a thing called "the equivalence principle": if an elevator is small enough, you cannot distinguish between the effects of being accelerated up at ##g## meters per second squared or being stationary (or moving with constant velocity) in the earth's gravitational field of ##g## meters per second squared. What this means is that during acceleration, a person with an accelerated clock would measure the rate of an clock at a distance of ##y## meters away as running <i>faster</i> than hers, according to the formula above. That is, the factor of ##(1 - (v/c)^{2})## has to be replaced by ##((1 + gy/c^{2})^2 - (v/c)^2)## in the square root, where $y$ is the distance between the accelerated clock and the unaccelerated clock.

This is the cheap solution to the so-called "twin paradox". Say a traveling twin sets out from earth, goes to a distant star, turns around and comes back. There are three periods of acceleration: near the earth going away, turning around, and near the earth to slow down. During periods of steady motion, both the traveler and the stay at home see each other's clock running slow with respect to each other's (they have to; this is a theory of relativity). During the acceleration near the earth, both twins agree that the stay at home twin's clock runs faster than the traveler's, but not appreciably so, because the distance ##y## is not very big. However, during the turnaround, the traveler thinks the earth based twin's clock runs much faster, due to the large value of ##y##. Detailed calculation shows that this rate is precisely what is needed (with the slight increase near the earth) to reconcile the two twins' clocks.

All of this was worked out by the Danish physicist Christian M\o ller in 1943 using general relativity, though he didn't realize (apparently) that the result was exact. A French physicist, Henri Arzèlies, went through it and showed indeed that the resolution was exact. In fact, general relativity is not needed at all: the equivalence principle and gravitational time dilation are all that are required.

Reference: https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...time-dilation-is-due-to-acceleration.1051866/
 
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  • #37
vanhees71 said:
Yes, and the clock hypothesis has been confirmed by observation for amazing accelerations. I don't know, why you make such a fuss about some pop-sci youtube video...
So are you saying that Sabine's video is wrong?
 
  • #38
Epic Mythology said:
So are you saying that Sabine's video is wrong?
Why do you KEEP asking that same question? This is beginning to look like you are just trolling us.

Forget the damn video and study some actual physics.
 
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  • #39
Epic Mythology said:
So are you saying that Sabine's video is wrong?
As @phinds said, this question has already been answered. Her statement is wrong, or at least not clearly right.

It is time to move on. We are a physics education site, not a YouTube video criticism site. So if this thread is intended to help you learn physics then please move on to some of the substantive responses about the physics that you have received but ignored.
 
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  • #40
Epic Mythology said:
So are you saying that Sabine's video is wrong?
As others already mentioned, for example her statement at 18:00 is wrong.

On the other hand, I like her visualization of the reciprocity of time dilation at 09:51 with help of the hyperbolas of equal proper time in the animated Minkowski diagram.
 
  • #41
Dale said:
As @phinds said, this question has already been answered. Her statement is wrong, or at least not clearly right.

It is time to move on. We are a physics education site, not a YouTube video criticism site. So if this thread is intended to help you learn physics then please move on to some of the substantive responses about the physics that you have received but ignored.
Thank you Dale. I will likely be reaching out to Sabine and citing this thread, asking her to please correct her errors. I will be citing Dale the physics expert from physicsforums.com if that is OK with you--thank you:
Her statement is wrong, or at least not clearly right. -Dale, physics expert from physicsforums.com
 
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  • #42
Epic Mythology said:
So are you saying that Sabine's video is wrong?
Epic Mythology said:
Thank you Dale. I will likely be reaching out to Sabine and citing this thread, asking her to please correct her errors. I will be citing Dale the physics expert from physicsforums.com if that is OK with you--thank you:
What is wrong with you? Seriously?
 
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  • #43
Epic Mythology said:
Thank you Dale. I will likely be reaching out to Sabine and citing this thread, asking her to please correct her errors. I will be citing Dale the physics expert from physicsforums.com if that is OK with you--thank you:
So I guess that is a clear indication that you are not interested in learning physics, just getting a review.

Feel free to cite me. My statements are a matter of public record.

@ all participants, further posts with no physics content will be deleted. Particularly posts only about the video
 
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  • #44
Epic Mythology said:
I would like to learn the proper physics for this topic. Please do share.
Vanadium 50 said:
If it's to learn relativity, the best way is to stop watching Youtube videos, pick up a copy of Taylor and Wheeler and start working through it.
 
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  • #45
Epic Mythology said:
What physics is Sabine getting wrong? What is the best and most constructive way we can offer a correction so she can better help with the greater mission of teaching proper physics? What should have Sabine said in her video.
Read the thread, why are you still asking this?

If your mission is to correct pop sci videos on youtube, you are on a pretty long mission...
 
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  • #46
Epic Mythology said:
Would it be better to learn physics from a Ph.D. or professor or textbook, or an internet forum where most folks don't share credentials, research publications, or institutions. Please let me know the best way to learn physics,
The best way to learn physics is through a traditional physics course.

A second good approach is with a textbook (Taylor and Wheeler has already been recommended), but for that it is important to discipline yourself to work the practice problems in the textbook, not just read the material. More learning occurs in practice problems than in passive reading.

Online forums, like this one, can only supplement this kind of learning. We cannot replace it nor serve as a substitute.

Research publications are a good place to learn advanced concepts, but not the basics. They assume that the reader has already mastered the textbook material.

PopSci videos and books are actively harmful.

Epic Mythology said:
Might you have a Ph.D.?
I do, as do many of the primary contributors to this forum. I am also a full time physics educator professionally.

Epic Mythology said:
You say that "(Sabine's) statement is wrong, or at least not clearly right." What physics is Sabine getting wrong?
I explained this in detail in my first post to you, which you glossed over in preference for harping on the video. Please take the time now to read my substantive response and ask follow up questions about the physics.

https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...-is-due-to-acceleration.1051866/#post-6877408
 
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  • #48
Time(*) to close this thread.

(*) At least in my frame...
 
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