Second quantization and partial traces

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the representation of fermionic Fock space as a tensor product and the challenges associated with performing partial traces over one particle type. Participants explore the differences between fermionic and bosonic Fock spaces, particularly focusing on the implications of anticommutation relations in fermionic systems.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about the possibility of expressing fermionic Fock space as a tensor product similar to bosonic Fock space, where states can be written as a tensor product of number states.
  • Others clarify that not every state in bosonic Fock space can be represented in this way, as states can be superpositions of number eigenstates and can involve entanglement between different species.
  • There is a suggestion that creation and annihilation operators of different species might commute, even for fermions, though this assumption is questioned later in the discussion.
  • Participants note that the ordering of creation operators in fermionic Fock space is crucial due to anticommutation relations, leading to potential complications in calculations.
  • A proposed method for representing operators in fermionic Fock space is introduced, which includes terms to account for the additional minus signs arising from anticommutation when necessary.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the commutation relations of creation and annihilation operators in fermionic systems, and there is no consensus on the best approach to take a partial trace over one species in fermionic Fock space.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations are noted regarding the assumptions made about the commutation of operators and the representation of states, particularly the need for a specified order of creation operators in fermionic Fock space.

ledamage
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Hi!

Is there a common way to write a fermionic Fock space (finite dimensional) as a tensor product such that it is possible to do a partial trace over one particle type? Sorry, if this is an obvious question, but I just can't see it.

Thanks!
 
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Let me refine the question. In bosonic Fock space, due to the commutation relations of the creation and annihilation operators, it is possible to write every state vector as a tensor product

|\psi\rangle = |n_1\rangle \otimes |n_2\rangle \otimes |n_3\rangle \otimes \hdots

where n_1=0,1,2,3,\hdots etc., right?

Since creators and annihilators commute, it is possible to write an operator, e.g., Q=a_1^\dagger a_3^\dagger a_2 a_1 a_2^\dagger as Q=a_1^\dagger a_1 \otimes a_2 a_2^\dagger \otimes a_3^\dagger \otimes 1 \otimes 1 \otimes \hdots as long as the ordering within the same species is maintained, right?

This makes it particularly easy to take partial traces over modes, just by taking the expectation value of, say, |n_2\rangle and taking the sum \sum_{n_2=0}^\infty. In fermionic Fock space, however, I always get minus signs when commuting since even different species don't commute trivially, so it seems suspicious to do something like above. Is there a common treatment for this? How do I take a partial trace over, say, one species in a fermionic Fock space?
 
ledamage said:
Let me refine the question. In bosonic Fock space, due to the commutation relations of the creation and annihilation operators, it is possible to write every state vector as a tensor product

|\psi\rangle = |n_1\rangle \otimes |n_2\rangle \otimes |n_3\rangle \otimes \hdots

where n_1=0,1,2,3,\hdots etc., right?
No, not every state is of this form. Firstly, a state vector |\psi\rangle for one particle species, in general, is a superposition of number eigenstates |n\rangle, where n=0,1,2,3,\hdots. Secondly, it's possible to entangle particles of different species; so you need to include finite linear sums of states of this form. (That is, the states you mention are a basis for the state space: state space is the closure of the set of finite linear sums of basis states. Reed and Simon, Methods of Modern Math Physics is a great reference.)

ledamage said:
Since creators and annihilators commute, it is possible to write an operator, e.g., Q=a_1^\dagger a_3^\dagger a_2 a_1 a_2^\dagger as Q=a_1^\dagger a_1 \otimes a_2 a_2^\dagger \otimes a_3^\dagger \otimes 1 \otimes 1 \otimes \hdots as long as the ordering within the same species is maintained, right?
Yes, I think so.

ledamage said:
This makes it particularly easy to take partial traces over modes, just by taking the expectation value of, say, |n_2\rangle and taking the sum \sum_{n_2=0}^\infty. In fermionic Fock space, however, I always get minus signs when commuting since even different species don't commute trivially, so it seems suspicious to do something like above. Is there a common treatment for this? How do I take a partial trace over, say, one species in a fermionic Fock space?

Good question. I'm not sure. I never really thought about it before but my first inclination was that creation/annihilation operators of different species commute, even for fermions.
 
schieghoven said:
No, not every state is of this form. Firstly, a state vector |\psi\rangle for one particle species, in general, is a superposition of number eigenstates |n\rangle, where n=0,1,2,3,\hdots. Secondly, it's possible to entangle particles of different species; so you need to include finite linear sums of states of this form. (That is, the states you mention are a basis for the state space: state space is the closure of the set of finite linear sums of basis states. Reed and Simon, Methods of Modern Math Physics is a great reference.)

Oh sure! Actually, this is what I meant - a possible basis for the Fock space. But this is sufficient for the present purposes if I choose this basis for my trace.

Good question. I'm not sure. I never really thought about it before but my first inclination was that creation/annihilation operators of different species commute, even for fermions.

Unfortunately, I noted that I implicitly assumed this after a quite tedious calculation. But we have \{ a_i^{(\dagger)},a_j^{(\dagger)} \} = 0, don't we? Indeed, when expressing basis states of the fermionic Fock space in terms of occupation numbers, a determined order of the creators has to be specified, e.g.,

|n_1, n_2, \hdots \rangle := (a_1^\dagger)^{n_1} (a_2^\dagger)^{n_2} \hdots |0\rangle \neq (a_2^\dagger)^{n_1} (a_1^\dagger)^{n_2} \hdots |0\rangle \ .

(Actually, for three of four cases, the \neq is a =, but not in general.) In another thread, I found an interesting suggestion: Write the basis states of the fermionic Fock space as

|\psi\rangle = |n_1\rangle \otimes |n_2\rangle \otimes \hdots \ , \qquad (n_i=0,1)

and represent the operators by

a_1^{(\dagger)} = a_1^{(\dagger)} \otimes 1 \otimes 1 \otimes 1 \otimes \hdots ,
a_2^{(\dagger)} = (-1)^{a_1^\dagger a_1} \otimes a_2^{(\dagger)} \otimes 1 \otimes 1 \otimes \hdots ,
a_3^{(\dagger)} = (-1)^{a_1^\dagger a_1} \otimes (-1)^{a_2^\dagger a_2} \otimes a_3^{(\dagger)} \otimes 1 \otimes \hdots
etc.

The (-1)^{a_i^\dagger a_i} stands for (1-2 a_i^\dagger a_i) and accounts for the additional minus signs due to anticommuting when necessary.
 

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