Set size of a cartesian product

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around determining the size of the Cartesian product of sets derived from the proper subsets of a set S with n elements, specifically under the condition that the union of the subsets equals S. Participants explore combinatorial approaches and seek hints to progress in their reasoning.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant introduces the problem of finding the size of the set defined by pairs of proper subsets X and Y of S, where X union Y equals S.
  • Another participant questions how many elements Y has if X has k elements, and discusses the minimum and maximum values for k.
  • A participant suggests that if X has k elements, then Y can have between n-k and n-k elements, noting that the minimum value for k is 1 and the maximum is n-1.
  • There is a suggestion to write out combinations for small values of n (2 and 3) to better understand the problem.
  • One participant points out that the condition X union Y = S is a significant clue for solving the problem.
  • Another participant asks for clarification on whether a previous statement contained a typo regarding the number of elements in Y.
  • Hints are provided regarding the number of k-element subsets that can be chosen from a set of n, and the implications for the sizes of X and Y.
  • One participant mentions that there are k^2 possibilities for X and suggests a combinatorial approach involving binomial coefficients.
  • Another participant concludes with a calculation involving binomial coefficients and subsets, arriving at a result of 3^n.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the relationships between the sizes of sets X and Y, and while there is some agreement on the combinatorial aspects, the discussion remains unresolved with multiple interpretations and approaches presented.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions of proper subsets and the implications of the union condition. The discussion also reflects varying interpretations of the relationships between the sizes of X and Y.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in combinatorial mathematics, set theory, and those seeking to understand the complexities of Cartesian products in the context of set operations may find this discussion relevant.

guropalica
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Set S with n elements!
Set size of
{<x,y> | (X,Y are proper subsets of S), (X union Y = S)!
I tried doing something, but I'm stuck staring at a closed door, so I need a fresh start!
Any hints would be appreciated!
 
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If X has k elements, then how many elements does Y have?
What is the minimum and maximum value for k?

Maybe you can try writing out all the combinations for n = 2 and n = 3 to get some feeling for the problem.
 
If x has k elements, than Y has n-k to n-k elements at most!
Minimum value for k is 1, and max is n-1
It's pretty much pointless to write about 2 elements since that way I'd have only 2 cartesian products only since by the condition sets are not subsets so they can't be equal to the parent ie we get two sets of 1 element!
The same with 3 :/
 
guropalica said:
If x has k elements, than Y has n-k to n-k elements at most!
/

X union Y = S is a big clue.
 
Is there a typo, or did you just mean "n - k elements exactly"? :-)

OK, here's another hint: how many different subsets of k elements can you choose from a set of n? In other words, how many possibilities are there for X?
 
n-1 a typo...There are k^2 possibilities for X, and C of k from n for Y I think!
PS.Can we go more direct with hints I'm deadline's due 02:15 GMT :)
 
You're almost there, just take a moment to think it through.

C(n, k) is the number of k-element subsets you can make for X.

Then Y has to contain all the other elements (and, if X and Y don't need to be disjoint, any subset of X. How many of those are there?)
 
C(n,k), n-k the number of elements of Y, 2^(n-k) the number of subsets...by binomial I got 3^n!
Thanks a lot guys
 
C(n,k), n-k the number of elements of Y, 2^(n-k) the number of subsets...by binomial I got 3^n!
Thanks a lot guys
 

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