News Should It Be Legal To Sell A Kidney?

[Economist]

I was reading this article/debate today about whether or not people should be allowed to sell their kidney? Just wanted to see what you guys think about the topics.

Here's the article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118901049137818211.html?mod=hps_us_inside_today

Here's a short podcast on the topic (just under 40 minutes):
http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2006/06/the_economics_o_4.html

 

[drankin]

I don't think so. Just think of the homeless selling body parts only to end up homeless again without them.

 

[PhY]

And Jump start, a human body part traffic system?

You know in Africa & other parts of the world..they kill people to sell their body parts on the market?

Its also very very unethical to do so.

 

[Economist]

You know in Africa & other parts of the world..they kill people to sell their body parts on the market?

Do you think that would happen here?

Its also very very unethical to do so.

Can't this be debated? I don't personally see anything unethical about someone selling a kidney. Couldn't it be seen as their property?

 

[drankin]

Sure, but it would start a crazy commerce. I believe that people should only be allowed to donate.

Could you imagine how much more horrific muggings could become if a perp took someone for all they're worth? LOL

 

[DaveC426913]

Taken in a vacuum one could argue it is their right to sell their own organs.

The trouble is that this is a door we cannot afford to open. It is just way too fraught with abuse.

 

[Economist]

The trouble is that this is a door we cannot afford to open. It is just way too fraught with abuse.

What do you mean? How do we know this "is a door we cannot afford to open" or that "it's too fraught with abuse"? Some have claimed this is a door we cannot afford to keep closed.

 

[ShawnD]

What do you mean? How do we know this "is a door we cannot afford to open" or that "it's too fraught with abuse"? Some have claimed this is a door we cannot afford to keep closed.

Or instead of potentially opening Pandora's box, change the organ donor card so that it's an organ opt-out card. The entire population would be counted as organ donors until they explicitly sign a card saying "I'm taking my kidneys to the incinerator with me because I'm an *******". Maybe force them to wear arm bands with a logo of a blue kidney on a white background...

An organ opt-out card would seem like a much easier law to pass. Unless Ron Paul were elected, then the Market would control the flow of kidneys

 

[PhY]

Do you think that would happen here?



Can't this be debated? I don't personally see anything unethical about someone selling a kidney. Couldn't it be seen as their property?

Well I do not conform to your type of reasoning of "It will never happen to me or around me". You must also take into consideration that most religions view the Body as a holy (Jehovahs witnesses don't even give blood to their children [so u can imagine how extreme some people are]).
I'm pretty sure you can sell your kidney...there might be a black market somewhere around "here" ...

 

[turbo]

It should be legal to sell bodily organs, so that the free market can work its wonders. As a demonstration of how the free market works, maybe Ann Coulter would sell off her brain a slice at a time (a la Ray Liotta in "Hannibal") to rich conservatives anxious to experience her "wisdom". It's not like she's using that brain for anything.

 

[ShawnD]

It should be legal to sell bodily organs, so that the free market can work its wonders. As a demonstration of how the free market works, maybe Ann Coulter would sell off her brain a slice at a time (a la Ray Liotta in "Hannibal") to rich conservatives anxious to experience her "wisdom". It's not like she's using that brain for anything.

To add to this list
-Remove her voice box so she shuts up
-Pump her full of DARI medication so she smiles every now and then
-Give her more food since she would probably look really good with some meat on her bones. In a sexual way, of course; cannibalism is so last year.

What were we talking about? Oh, right, organ trading. I fully endorse the removal of Ann Coulter's organs.

 

[DaveC426913]

Or instead of potentially opening Pandora's box, change the organ donor card so that it's an organ opt-out card. The entire population would be counted as organ donors until they explicitly sign a card saying "I'm taking my kidneys to the incinerator with me because I'm an *******". Maybe force them to wear arm bands with a logo of a blue kidney on a white background...

An organ opt-out card would seem like a much easier law to pass. Unless Ron Paul were elected, then the Market would control the flow of kidneys

Read some Larry Niven. Tax fraud and unpaid parking tickets were crimes worthy of being fed to the organ banks.

 

[Economist]

Well I do not conform to your type of reasoning of "It will never happen to me or around me". You must also take into consideration that most religions view the Body as a holy (Jehovahs witnesses don't even give blood to their children [so u can imagine how extreme some people are]).
I'm pretty sure you can sell your kidney...there might be a black market somewhere around "here" ...

I realize that some people view this as immoral. Many people also view alcohol, gambling, and premarital sex as immoral. Does that mean they should be enforced by law? I don't believe that selling a kidney is immoral, and therefore, why can't I be allowed to sell my kidney and the person who thinks it's immoral can choose not to sell his kidney.

Yeah, there might be a black market, but maybe I am a law abiding citizen, and therefore, I would sell a kindey in a legal market but not an illegal/black market.

 

[Economist]

It should be legal to sell bodily organs, so that the free market can work its wonders. As a demonstration of how the free market works, maybe Ann Coulter would sell off her brain a slice at a time (a la Ray Liotta in "Hannibal") to rich conservatives anxious to experience her "wisdom". It's not like she's using that brain for anything.

To add to this list
-Remove her voice box so she shuts up
-Pump her full of DARI medication so she smiles every now and then
-Give her more food since she would probably look really good with some meat on her bones. In a sexual way, of course; cannibalism is so last year.

What were we talking about? Oh, right, organ trading. I fully endorse the removal of Ann Coulter's organs.

For sure. That Ann Coulter is annoying as hell. By the way, I am not a republican/conservative. And most republicans/conservatives don't really have much faith in the free-market or freedom in general.

 

[Zenparticle]

Sure, but it would start a crazy commerce. I believe that people should only be allowed to donate.

I don't agree here, I feel that if you give someone a second chance at life by offering your own body parts, that should at least deserve a tip or some commission! Gosh!.

 

[Economist]

Or instead of potentially opening Pandora's box, change the organ donor card so that it's an organ opt-out card. The entire population would be counted as organ donors until they explicitly sign a card saying "I'm taking my kidneys to the incinerator with me because I'm an *******".

I've heard this mentioned before, and it might work. However, I've also heard people say that it might not supply enough kidneys. Also, after people die their kidneys might be of lower quality, so a market might bring better kidneys in.

Also, then people can't profit off of this transaction. Isn't that an important consideration? What if this would allow some poor people to increase their standard of living? Maybe some poor people could fund to send their self or their kid to college on kidney money?

 

[ShawnD]

I've heard this mentioned before, and it might work. However, I've also heard people say that it might not supply enough kidneys. Also, after people die their kidneys might be of lower quality, so a market might bring better kidneys in.

If everybody is already an organ donor, it means kidneys are supplied to the market at the same rate as the death rate, minus those who died from kidney problems, infections, etc. Selling your kidneys would mean that your kidneys are donated now instead of later, which means you can't donate them later. It wouldn't increase the supply of kidneys, but it would increase the overall cost of kidneys and decrease the availability. Most people don't have an extra 30k kicking around to buy somebody's kidney. As a result, kidneys might end up going to wealthier people who are less likely to benefit from them when the kidney transplant would be a last chance hail marry play, rather than some poor kid who has a really good chance of living if he simply had a kidney.

Also, then people can't profit off of this transaction. Isn't that an important consideration? What if this would allow some poor people to increase their standard of living? Maybe some poor people could fund to send their self or their kid to college on kidney money?

Doesn't seem likely. Being a prostitute seems like an easy way to make cash with a considerable level of risk (just like having kidney surgery), but I don't hear too often about people doing this to pay for their kids' college. Conversely, lots of young people work as strippers, escorts, and porn stars to pay for college. Would it be too far a jump to assume that young people be selling their kidneys to pay for college? It's impossible to prove that this would happen, but it's food for thought.

 

[Economist]

If everybody is already an organ donor, it means kidneys are supplied to the market at the same rate as the death rate, minus those who died from kidney problems, infections, etc. Selling your kidneys would mean that your kidneys are donated now instead of later, which means you can't donate them later. It wouldn't increase the supply of kidneys, but it would increase the overall cost of kidneys and decrease the availability. Most people don't have an extra 30k kicking around to buy somebody's kidney. As a result, kidneys might end up going to wealthier people who are less likely to benefit from them when the kidney transplant would be a last chance hail marry play, rather than some poor kid who has a really good chance of living if he simply had a kidney.

Maybe, but then again maybe not. Besides, if it's that easy, why hasn't it been done?

I've heard estimates that the average kidney would sell for $15K instead of $30K. Besides, markets tend to produce a large range of quality. Most people living below the poverty line have things like air conditioners, TVs, cars, microwaves, dishwashers, etc. The quality is probably not up to the rich person standards, but nevertheless the poor afford a lower quality and lower priced good. I've heard people speculate that this would probably happen with kidneys as well. Both low-income and high-income people would be able to get kidneys easier, but yes there would be some differences in quality.

Doesn't seem likely. Being a prostitute seems like an easy way to make cash with a considerable level of risk (just like having kidney surgery), but I don't hear too often about people doing this to pay for their kids' college. Conversely, lots of young people work as strippers, escorts, and porn stars to pay for college. Would it be too far a jump to assume that young people be selling their kidneys to pay for college? It's impossible to prove that this would happen, but it's food for thought.

I would argue that being a prostititute is very different. Most prostitutes make little money because of pimps, and most prostitutes have additional problems such as drug addition. Also, in Vegas were prostitution is legal, the prostitutes make a lot more money (and actually get to keep it). The fact that prostitution is illegal in most places makes it a bad example for your argument.

 

[ShawnD]

I'm pretty sure prostitution is only illegal if you sell it on the street. Check your local news paper and you'll find that the last 3-4 pages in the classified section is all prostitutes. Police do nothing to stop these rings, so I'll just assume it's legal or half-legal.

Poor people with air conditioners and TVs are just barely breaking even. Something like a $15,000 kidney would take decades to pay off. If you assume that poor person is one of the 50 million Americans without health insurance, it would essentially never get paid. Try to think of this from the seller's perspective. Some guy is making $10/h at walmart and he wants to buy a $20,000 kidney, which will cost maybe another $100,000 to have put in (surgery is expensive). Would you sell him that kidney with the expectation that he would pay it back? I wouldn't. There's no way in hell I would sell him that kidney; he'll just welch on the damn thing.
When I got my first real career job, I tried to get a loan for car. My yearly salary was $36,000 and the loan would have been for $18,000. I was denied. I also know a guy who was working in construction and making about $50,000 per year, and he couldn't get a loan for $30,000 to get a new truck. If I can't get a loan for half my yearly salary, how do you expect a poor guy to get a loan for a kidney that is 100% his yearly salary, including that fact that he will owe 10x his yearly salary in other expenses? Only the rich would be able to afford kidneys.

 

[PhY]

I realize that some people view this as immoral. Many people also view alcohol, gambling, and premarital sex as immoral. Does that mean they should be enforced by law? I don't believe that selling a kidney is immoral, and therefore, why can't I be allowed to sell my kidney and the person who thinks it's immoral can choose not to sell his kidney.

Yeah, there might be a black market, but maybe I am a law abiding citizen, and therefore, I would sell a kindey in a legal market but not an illegal/black market.

Your Reasoning is on the grounds of Let's Legalize Heroine, because one person thinks its not immoral.
And Why not?
You want to sell your kidney? Great.
Legal or illegal...You'll choose the black market...because you'd earn more buck for the pound, if you think that there ain't going to be a Waiting list, and if you think people who have been waiting 2 years for a transplant are going to Wait. You're wrong.

The black market Rules in this type of thing, which is why it is not worth legalization.

In any case...you want to get rid of your kidney? be a man and donate it.
What sick bastard are you, trying to sell your body parts, what's your reasoning that somehow you must pay for the Food that your mother gave you to make it Grow?
Oh Please. Your Reply made my day.

You didn't earn a kidney ..all I see is a Greedy primitive Way of earning money, because you didn't earn it, take your mother out of the equation and all you'd be is an Abortion on a Computer, let's see you grow a kidney like that mate.

Actually its Your Mothers money if you sell it, your mother created you and your kidney mate. infact if you want to look at yourself like a Chicken egg go ahead! I don't care.
Infact if you were so, then wheres your Body part manager "the farmer.."

The way I see it, you understand yourself as some Chicken with parts to sell.
Good, Darwins law of Natural selection should take care of you and me.

Also I know My post is very rude, but I am a bit confused how a """Law abiding citizen"" like you should Confused Gambling, Sex and Alcohol (things of pleasure) to Cutting your body parts off (things of pain and suffering) for a quick buck.
Now a law abiding citizen drinking a 2 glasses of Wine after a hard days work, I don't see the crime in that and I don't see the crime of an adolescent couple engaging in what nature Programmed them to do, else Hormones wouldn't cause such lust.
Now Gambling is wrong, but its fun. So it makes a whole difference.. I don't gamble ..but if other people do ..thats their choice. Also I don't mind the odd low-stake poker game with my mates.
Same reasoning goes for your choice in choosing to sell your body parts.
Although do not blame me for thinking you are a very weird person.

Oh and btw: What has this world come to ...seriously.

 

[PhY]

Doesn't seem likely. Being a prostitute seems like an easy way to make cash with a considerable level of risk (just like having kidney surgery), but I don't hear too often about people doing this to pay for their kids' college. Conversely, lots of young people work as strippers, escorts, and porn stars to pay for college. Would it be too far a jump to assume that young people be selling their kidneys to pay for college? It's impossible to prove that this would happen, but it's food for thought.

People would do anything for money.
Ever seen 2 girls and one cup?
Thats the power of money mate.

Legalizing Kidney Sale would be a health disaster waiting to happen.
healthy students all getting health problems, because of their stupid decisions..to make money, prostitution is bad enough no wonder HIV and Aids Spread throughout the world so fast.
The appendix is useless, but 2 kidneys are a must, infact to live with one kidney is not as easy as you all think.

And let's face it, the government can't legalize something so immoral as to sell your own body part, its sick and animal-like behavior. As i said before one should DONATE not sell, like they're chicken wings.

If anything artificial Kidneys should be made..rather than this Filthy topic of how Capitalistically Savage we've become.
How this thread is not Locked ..I don't know why.

 

[Economist]

I'm pretty sure prostitution is only illegal if you sell it on the street. Check your local news paper and you'll find that the last 3-4 pages in the classified section is all prostitutes. Police do nothing to stop these rings, so I'll just assume it's legal or half-legal.

Poor people with air conditioners and TVs are just barely breaking even. Something like a $15,000 kidney would take decades to pay off. If you assume that poor person is one of the 50 million Americans without health insurance, it would essentially never get paid. Try to think of this from the seller's perspective. Some guy is making $10/h at walmart and he wants to buy a $20,000 kidney, which will cost maybe another $100,000 to have put in (surgery is expensive). Would you sell him that kidney with the expectation that he would pay it back? I wouldn't. There's no way in hell I would sell him that kidney; he'll just welch on the damn thing.
When I got my first real career job, I tried to get a loan for car. My yearly salary was $36,000 and the loan would have been for $18,000. I was denied. I also know a guy who was working in construction and making about $50,000 per year, and he couldn't get a loan for $30,000 to get a new truck. If I can't get a loan for half my yearly salary, how do you expect a poor guy to get a loan for a kidney that is 100% his yearly salary, including that fact that he will owe 10x his yearly salary in other expenses? Only the rich would be able to afford kidneys.

Some people have good income, but bad credit. Others have good credit, but normal income. What your friend makes per year doesn't mean a whole lot to a car dealership considering that he probably hasn't showed the ability to pay off previous creditors. Especially with something like a car (which depreciates, and therefore the bank has a hard time selling it to get their money back) credit is a huge factor.

As for the guy who is poor. First of, you assumed he does not have insurance, but if he had a job with insurance then maybe it would be covered. Second, he probably will have a hard time getting a kidney in the current system as well, so it's not likely that he'd be made worse off. Besides, his family/friends could still give him one of theirs for free if they preferred, or maybe his family/friends could help him buy one. And it's not clear that the kidney will cost that much for him, as he is poor so maybe he'll have to buy a cheaper (and lower quality) kidney.

 

[Evo]

How this thread is not Locked ..I don't know why.

Funny, I was just thinking the same thing.

Thread locked.