Should the Wave Equation for a Longitudinal Wave Include Time?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the wave equation for longitudinal waves, specifically addressing whether time should be included in the equation. Participants explore the implications of treating time as a constant in certain contexts while analyzing spatial variations in wave behavior.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the omission of time in the wave equation, suggesting that it should include both spatial and temporal derivatives.
  • Another participant acknowledges the correctness of the initial concern but explains that derivations often consider a snapshot in time, effectively freezing time to analyze spatial variations.
  • A different participant points out a perceived inconsistency in the treatment of time, noting that acceleration is involved in the equations but time is sometimes treated as constant.
  • One participant emphasizes that acceleration is always relevant in free body diagrams and that snapshots at different times yield consistent equations.
  • Another participant expresses uncertainty about when to apply the chain rule in functions of multiple variables, seeking clarity on the conditions for its application.
  • A subsequent reply suggests that the context determines whether time can be treated as constant, providing an example to illustrate the concept of independent variables in derivatives.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the treatment of time in the wave equation, with some agreeing on the snapshot approach while others highlight inconsistencies in its application. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the necessity of including time in the wave equation.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss the implications of freezing time in derivations and the application of the chain rule, indicating that the treatment of variables may depend on the specific context of the analysis.

dyn
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Hi.
I am working through " A Student's guide to waves " by Fleisch. In deriving the wave equation for a longitudinal wave it uses
dψ = (∂ψ/∂x) dx

where ψ is the displacement but ψ is a function of x and t ; so shouldn't this equation be
dψ = (∂ψ/∂x) dx + (∂ψ/∂t) dt

Thanks
 
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Strictly speaking you are correct. However, in these derivations one takes a snapshot of the wave at some particular instant and analyzes perhaps a free body diagram of a piece of the medium. (I assume this is the kind of derivation you are looking at.) So "time" is frozen, and one considers the spatial variation only.
 
thanks. It does look like a snapshot taken at a particular time but it also involves acceleration taken as ∂2ψ/∂t2 so it looks like when its convenient t is taken as a constant and when its convenient t is not a constant !
 
Acceleration is always involved in the use of a FBD the purpose of which is the apply Newton's 2nd Law. Snapshots of the wave at different times will yield the same equation m(d2ψ/dt2 )= Fnet. Think of d2ψ/dt2 as "acceleration" not as an instruction to you to take the second time derivative and apply the chain rule as you do so.
 
in this case I'm following a derivation from a book but in general if I'm faced with a function of 2 or more variables I would always apply the chain rule. How would I know when this is not to be applied ?
 
dyn said:
How would I know when this is not to be applied ?
It depends on the context, what you are doing and where you are going with it. For example, if you write ##r^2=x^2+y^2##, then
$$d(r^2)=\frac{\partial (x^2)}{\partial x}dx+\frac{\partial (y^2)}{\partial y}dy=2xdx+2ydy$$
You can see what this is saying: when you move in a general direction both ##x## and ##y## change. However, if you move along only one of the independent variables, say ##x## only, then ##dy=0##. Similarly here, when you "freeze" time to study the FBD of the string segment, it is implied that ##dt=0## because you "move" along independent variable ##x## only when you consider ##d\psi##.
 
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thank you. That helps
 

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