Showing that a sequence of supremums of a sequence has these two properties

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around proving properties of a sequence of supremums, specifically addressing two main claims related to the behavior of the sequence and its convergence. The scope includes mathematical reasoning and proof validation.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a proof involving the supremums of a sequence, asserting relationships between ##A_n## and ##A_{n+1}## based on the definitions of supremum.
  • Another participant challenges the proof, stating that ##A_n## does not necessarily equal any of the elements ##a_i##, providing a counterexample with the sequence ##a_i=1+1/i##.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of the supremum and its relationship to upper bounds, with participants questioning the necessity of complicated inequalities in the proof.
  • One participant suggests simplifying the proof for the second claim by focusing on the implications of a decreasing sequence and its bounds.
  • Participants express uncertainty about the correct interpretation of the supremum and its properties, leading to further clarification requests.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach consensus on the validity of the initial proof. There are competing views on the necessity of certain assumptions and the complexity of the arguments presented. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the correctness of the claims and proofs.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the proofs may involve unnecessary complications and assumptions, particularly regarding the boundedness of the sequence. There is also a lack of clarity on the definitions and implications of supremums in the context of the proofs.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in mathematical proofs, particularly in real analysis and the properties of sequences and supremums, may find this discussion relevant.

Eclair_de_XII
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TL;DR
Let ##\{a_n\}## be a sequence in ##\mathbb{R}##. Let ##A_k:=\sup\{a_n:n\geq k\}## and suppose that ##\{A_k\}## converges to some real number ##\lambda##. Show that:

(1) ##A_k## is a decreasing sequence
(2) ##A_k\geq \lambda## for all ##k##
===(1)===
Let ##n\in \mathbb{N}##. Express ##A_n## and ##A_{n+1}## as:

##A_n=\sup\{a_n,a_{n+1},\ldots\}##
##A_{n+1}=\sup\{a_{n+1},\ldots\}##

Suppose for some ##m\geq {n+1}##, ##a_m=A_{n+1}##. By definition, ##a_m\geq a_k## for ##k\geq {n+1}##.
If ##a_n<a_m##, then ##a_m\geq a_k## for ##k\geq n+1## and ##k=n##. Hence, ##a_m=A_n##.
Now suppose that ##a_n\geq a_m##. Then ##a_n\geq a_m \geq a_k## for ##k\geq {n+1}##. Hence, ##A_n=a_n\geq a_m = A_{n+1}##

===(2)===
Fact: A decreasing sequence of real numbers bounded from below must converge to its infimum.
We prove the second fact by proving that if ##A_k## is not bounded from below, it cannot converge to ##\lambda##.

Assume ##\{A_k\}## is not bounded from below. Then for all real numbers, particularly, ##\lambda##, there is an integer ##m## such that ##A_m<-|\lambda|##. Choose ##\epsilon=-A_m-|\lambda|## and let ##N\in \mathbb{N}##. Then whenever ##n\geq N##:

\begin{align*}
|A_n-\lambda|&\geq&|A_n|-|\lambda|\\
&\geq&-A_m-|\lambda|\\
&=&\epsilon
\end{align*}

if ##N>m##. If ##m\geq N##, choose ##n=m##:

\begin{align*}
|A_m-\lambda|&\geq&|A_m|-|\lambda|\\
&\geq&-A_m-|\lambda|\\
&=&\epsilon
\end{align*}

Hence, ##A_k## must be bounded from below. Since it is decreasing, it must converge and it converges to its infimum. It also converges to ##\lambda##. Any convergent sequence cannot converge to two different numbers, which means that ##\lambda## is the infimum.
 
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For step 1, your proof is wrong because in general ##A_n## does not have to be equal to any of the ##a_i##s. For example if ##a_i=1+1/i## for all i, then ##A_n=1## for all n.Your proof really shouldn't involve any complicated inequalities. ##A_n## is an upper bound of the set that ##A_{n+1}## is the supremum of. Why?
 
Office_Shredder said:
in general ##A_i## does not have to be equal to any of the ##a_i##s.

Oh, I had overlooked that possibility.

Office_Shredder said:
For example if ##a_i=1+1/i## for all i, then ##A_n=1## for all n.

Surely, you mean ##a_i=1-1/i##?

Office_Shredder said:
Why?

Because ##A_n## is an upper bound for the set containing ##a_k## for ##k\geq n+1## in addition to the set containing ##a_n##?
 
Try to write down a simple informal statement of why (1) and (2) hold. Once you have that, you can formalise a proof.
 
Eclair_de_XII said:
Surely, you mean ##a_i=1-1/i##?

I did indeed.

Because ##A_n## is an upper bound for the set containing ##a_k## for ##k\geq n+1## in addition to the set containing ##a_n##?

Yes. Since ##A_n## is an upper bound for a set which ##A_{n+1}## is the supremum, it must be at least as large as ##A_{n+1}## by definition of the supremum. That gives you part 1.

For part 2, your proof is overly complicated and starts by assuming ##A_n## is unbounded (though I don't think it's necessary for the rest of your proof). Try something simpler: if ##A_k## is decreasing, and there is some ##n## for which ##A_n < \lambda-\epsilon##, then every other ##A_k## for ##k>n## must be below ##A_n## which gives you a contradiction to the fact that ##\lambda## is the limit. You don't need to prove that it has some other limit, just that it doesn't match the statement you were given.
 
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