Simultaneous Causation and Entanglement

[Atype*]

I have seen the concept of "simultaneous causation" described in philosophy, the notion that A can cause B at a simultaneous time. This sounded suspect to me and so I asked for a reference to provide evidence that this is a real phenomenon , this is what i was provided with:

http://eve.physics.ox.ac.uk/NewWeb/Research/communication/communication.html

"These operations, although performed only on one particle, affect the joint (entangled) quantum state of the two particles. This cannot be verified by measurements on the two particles separately. But by measuring both of them jointly, using the quantum gate M, Bob can determine which of the four operations Alice performed, and so receive one of the four messages. Thus the technique effectively doubles the peak capacity of an information channel."

However i have also been told that entanglement implies a correlation but not causation. Can anyone clear this is up?
Is this an example of Simultaneous Causation or not? If not ,why not? Is this a real verified in the real world phenomenon or not?

 

[ZapperZ]

As far as we know right now, it is simply a correlation, not a causation. A measurement of one doesn't cause a signal to be transmitted to tell the other particle what it has to do. We know this because (i) the signal will have to be extremely fast (many times faster than c), and (ii) no signal has been detected.

So it is more like a correlation. This is no different than the classical case of conservation of angular momentum, let's say. If you measure the angular momentum of one, you immediately know the angular momentum of the other. The major difference between the two is that the classical case, these particles have definite momentum values even before measurement, whereas in the quantum case, superposition indicates that the values are not set before a measurement.

Zz.

 

[Atype*]

As far as we know right now, it is simply a correlation, not a causation. A measurement of one doesn't cause a signal to be transmitted to tell the other particle what it has to do. We know this because (i) the signal will have to be extremely fast (many times faster than c), and (ii) no signal has been detected.

So it is more like a correlation. This is no different than the classical case of conservation of angular momentum, let's say. If you measure the angular momentum of one, you immediately know the angular momentum of the other. The major difference between the two is that the classical case, these particles have definite momentum values even before measurement, whereas in the quantum case, superposition indicates that the values are not set before a measurement.

Zz.

Hi Zapper Z thanks you for that, IM on a philosophical forum and asked the person claiming the opposite to come to this forum to discuss their views but they refused. So I have posted below their response:
"Then it's not just a correlation since the effect is a result of the measurement, and the effect is simultaneous (i.e., beyond the light cone of the observer) with the measurement. The measurement is a cause of the effect -- not the cause of a ftl
"signal."
If you or anyone else could respond it would be very much appreciated.

 

[ZapperZ]

This is more of a game of semantics. I do not waste my time with such thing.

The measurement is the case of the "effect" that we know the spin state of one particle. But knowing that doesn't CAUSE the spin state of the OTHER particle. So what I stated is that there is no cause-and-effect mechanism for the knowledge of the spin state of the OTHER particle.

Doing this via an intermediary is frustrating. If they do not wish to be here, then you are on your own. Carrying a discussion with someone in another forum is not my idea of a productive time use. So this will be my last response to this issue.

Zz.

 

[Atype*]

I know what you mean, its a shame they won't come on here to defend their views because i find this a fascinating topic but so be it. Thanks very much for your replies.