Single main rotor helicopter

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    Helicopter Rotor
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical modeling of lift in a single main rotor helicopter, specifically addressing the conditions under which lift can be zero at extreme angles of attack (90 or -90 degrees). Participants are exploring the implications of these angles on lift and drag, referencing a NASA report on helicopter simulation.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how lift can be zero at 90 or -90 degrees angle of attack, suggesting that lift should be maximum at these angles.
  • Another participant explains that lift is defined as perpendicular to the inflow, implying that at 90 degrees, the helicopter blades would not generate lift and would instead be falling straight down.
  • A participant seeks clarification on what angle alpha represents in the equation, indicating confusion about its reference frame.
  • There is a discussion about whether the angle of attack is measured with respect to blade motion or vehicle motion, with some participants suggesting it is relative to the fuselage motion.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the equation's meaning, noting that at the specified angle of attack, only drag would be present as the air hits the blade broadside.
  • A later reply attempts to clarify that the angle alpha represents the angle between the flow direction and a hypothetical chord from the nose to the tail of the fuselage.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the implications of the angle of attack on lift generation, with multiple competing views remaining regarding the conditions under which lift can be zero.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the clarity of the reference axis for the angle of attack, and the discussion includes unresolved mathematical interpretations of the lift equation.

Marco9518
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Hello everyone!
I am currently developing a thesi to become an aeronautical engineer.
I am trying to reproduce the NASA report "a mathematical model of a single main rotor helicopter for piloted simulation".
I already built a simulink model but i am having a bit of trouble looking at the equations.
I uploaded a picture of the equation's set. I can't explain the L equation highlighted.
How can the lift be 0 when the angle of attack is 90 or -90 deg? cos(90) is zero, but at that alpha the lift should be maximum.

Thank to who will answer!
 

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Lift is always defined perpendicular to the inflow. So if at cos(90), then I guess the blades are not rotating and your chopper is falling straight down. But the lift is now defined perpendicular to the inflow, which is directed in the horizontal plane, so you will not ever get any lift from this 'lift'... :) Only some from the drag component, which is directed vertical in this case.
 
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What angle does alpha represent in that equation?
 
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Marco9518 said:
I am trying to reproduce the NASA report "a mathematical model of a single main rotor helicopter for piloted simulation".
Here is a link to that report for background info for everybody:

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19830001781
 
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Marco9518 said:
How can the lift be 0 when the angle of attack is 90 or -90 deg? cos(90) is zero, but at that alpha the lift should be maximum.
Why do you say this? At that angle of attack, there will only be drag. That would be the air hitting the blade broadside. (Is this angle of attack with respect to the blade motion or to the vehicle motion?)
 
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Arjan82 said:
Lift is always defined perpendicular to the inflow. So if at cos(90), then I guess the blades are not rotating and your chopper is falling straight down. But the lift is now defined perpendicular to the inflow, which is directed in the horizontal plane, so you will not ever get any lift from this 'lift'... :) Only some from the drag component, which is directed vertical in this case.
Thank you a lot for your answer. So at the moment i am modelling the fuselage alone and i am not taking into account any other component. As soon as i figure this out i will add the rotor inflow. For what i understand it is than possible for the lift to be zero at that angle of attack.
 
FactChecker said:
Why do you say this? At that angle of attack, there will only be drag. That would be the air hitting the blade broadside. (Is this angle of attack with respect to the blade motion or to the vehicle motion?)
Thank you a lot for your answer. So at the moment i am modelling the fuselage alone and i am not taking into account any other component. Talking about the angle of attack, they did not make very clear the reference axis. I supposed it to be with respect to the fuselage motion.
 
Lnewqban said:
What angle does alpha represent in that equation?
The way i formulated it, it represents the angle between the direction of the flow and an ipotetical "chord" that goes from the nose to the tail of the fuselage.
 
Marco9518 said:
The way i formulated it, it represents the angle between the direction of the flow and an ipotetical "chord" that goes from the nose to the tail of the fuselage.
It seems to be the lift contribuited by the fuselage while the helicopter is vertically descending for landing, which should equal its drag.
In that case, I can’t understand that equation; sorry.
 

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