So what happen to a shuttle that enters a black hole?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the fate of a shuttle entering a black hole, exploring the effects of tidal forces, the nature of singularities, and the conditions inside the event horizon. Participants examine both theoretical and conceptual aspects of black holes, including gravitational effects and the implications of general relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that a shuttle could avoid being ripped apart if it falls into a sufficiently large black hole, where tidal forces are negligible.
  • Others argue that tidal forces will indeed rip the ship apart if its size is nonzero, comparing it to the tidal effects experienced on Earth due to the Moon.
  • A later reply questions the definition of "nonzero" size, suggesting that a spaceship could theoretically occupy a single point in space.
  • Some participants discuss the nature of singularities, with one suggesting that the singularity may not be an actual point but rather a region of extreme density.
  • There is mention of Igor Novikov's work on traversing the inner singularity and surviving, indicating that the behavior of space-time inside a black hole is complex and not fully understood.
  • One participant notes that if space-time behaves normally, supermassive black holes might allow entry without harm, but the conditions near the singularity remain uncertain.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of spaghettification as a relevant phenomenon when discussing the effects of tidal forces near black holes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the effects of tidal forces based on the size of the black hole and the shuttle. There is no consensus on the nature of singularities or the conditions inside the event horizon, indicating multiple competing views remain.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in understanding the behavior of objects near and inside black holes, including unresolved mathematical steps and the dependence on the size of the black hole.

Grytviken
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So what happens to a shuttle that enters a black hole?

This is really a 2 part question. The first part is what I am more intrigued about more or less because someone here is liable to give me a definite answer.

What perplexes me is this: assuming i was able to avoid the acreation disk and debris surrounding most stellar singularities and let my ship fall naturally into the black hole, would it really get ripped appart? Aren't I just following the space-time curve in a relative manner? Am I not just free-falling in empty space, with no atmosphere to resist me and cause me to burn up?

Then, supposing I could cross the event horizon intact, is there even a singularity inside? Or is it just a mathematical artifact? As far as I can tell, the coefficient between a BH mass and the perimeter of it's event horizon eliminates the actual need for a singularity... Especially since the laws of physics break down in there as I've read.

I appreciate any info or theories regarding this but please address my main issue! Thank you very much in advance, I am new here and very excited to have found such an awsome forum!
 
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Grytviken said:
This is really a 2 part question. The first part is what I am more intrigued about more or less because someone here is liable to give me a definite answer.

What perplexes me is this: assuming i was able to avoid the acreation disk and debris surrounding most stellar singularities and let my ship fall naturally into the black hole, would it really get ripped appart? Aren't I just following the space-time curve in a relative manner? Am I not just free-falling in empty space, with no atmosphere to resist me and cause me to burn up?

The tidal forces will rip the ship apart, if your size is nonzero. Just like the moon tries to rip the Earth apart (although it only manages to create some tidal water effects in that case).

Then, supposing I could cross the event horizon intact, is there even a singularity inside? Or is it just a mathematical artifact? As far as I can tell, the coefficient between a BH mass and the perimeter of it's event horizon eliminates the actual need for a singularity... Especially since the laws of physics break down in there as I've read.

According to GR, there is a point within the event horizon where the curvature of spacetime diverges. It could be the case that in reality it is not a singularity (e.g. very large instead infinite), but nobody knows this, of course.
 
If the Black Hole is large enough, the tidal forces are negligible. You can enter without being harmed.
But inside, there's a singularity lurking. Whether it's an "actual" singularity or just something incredibly dense and hot and so doesn't really matter for you, the result is the same.
 
torquil said:
If your size is nonzero.
.
What falls under the zero category?
 
Grytviken said:
.
What falls under the zero category?

When the subset of R^3 occupied by your spaceship is one point.

Torquil
 
Maybe I shoul repeat that
The tidal forces will rip the ship apart, if your size is nonzero.
is wrong, depending on the BH size. The largest would even let planets through without ripping them apart.
 
Ich said:
Maybe I shoul repeat that

is wrong, depending on the BH size. The largest would even let planets through without ripping them apart.

Aha, sorry I think we are talking about different things. You are talking about crossing the horizon, I'm talking about what will happen eventually when you get close enough to the singularity.

Torquil
 
torquil said:
Aha, sorry I think we are talking about different things. You are talking about crossing the horizon, I'm talking about what will happen eventually when you get close enough to the singularity.

Torquil

Similar situation, but everything beyond the event horizon is very difficult to compute. Igor Novikov did some interesting papers on traversing the inner singularity and surviving, which might be worth checking out. Just do a search on the arXiv for the preprints. Super-massive black-holes have negligible tidal forces up really close to the singularity - if space-time behaves itself the other side of the event horizon. If there's a phase-transition into a "gravastar" or some other exotic interior space-time, then the point is moot... you go splat at high temperature just infinitesimally outside the Schwarzschild radius.
 

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