Solving Geodesics with Metric $$ds^2$$

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around solving geodesics using a specific metric in a spacetime context. Participants are exploring the implications of the metric on the motion of test bodies arranged in a circle, particularly focusing on the calculation of the second derivative of the area of the circle and the ratio of diagonals, while expressing results in terms of the Ricci and Weyl tensors. The scope includes mathematical reasoning and technical explanations related to general relativity and differential geometry.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a metric and poses a problem involving the calculation of geodesics and the second derivative of the area of a circle defined in the metric.
  • Another participant questions the correctness of the Christoffel symbols and the expression for the second derivative of the area, suggesting that the limits of integration may be time-dependent.
  • A participant expresses uncertainty about the derivation of the second derivative of the area and requests clarification on the integration process.
  • There is a discussion about the dependency of the radius \( R \) on time and its implications for the calculations involved.
  • One participant asserts that the positions of the test particles remain constant, leading to a simplification in the calculation of the area.
  • Participants share their calculations and interpretations, with some acknowledging errors in their previous work.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the correctness of the Christoffel symbols, the treatment of time-dependent limits in integration, and the approach to calculating the second derivative of the area. There is no consensus on these issues, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not reached a definitive agreement on the expressions for the Christoffel symbols or the implications of time dependence in their calculations. The discussion includes various assumptions about the behavior of the metric and the test particles.

edoofir
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I have the following question to solve:Use the metric:
$$ds^2 = -dt^2 +dx^2 +2a^2(t)dxdy + dy^2 +dz^2$$

Test bodies are arranged in a circle on the metric at rest at $$t=0$$.
The circle define as $$x^2 +y^2 \leq R^2$$

The bodies start to move on geodesic when we have $$a(0)=0$$

a. we have to calculate the second derivative of the area of the circle $$S = \int{\sqrt{g^(2)}dxdy}$$ respected to time and express your answer using the Ricci tensor.

b. calculate the second derivative respected to time of the ratio of the diagonals $D_1$ and $D_2$ and express it using Weyl tensor.

The Christoffel symbols:
$$ \Gamma^{t}_{xy} = \Gamma^{t}_{yx} = a(t)a'(t)$$
$$\Gamma^{x}_{tx} = \Gamma^{x}_{xt} = \frac{a^3(t)a'(t)}{a^4(t)-1} $$
$$\Gamma^{y}_{ty} = \Gamma^{y}_{yt} = \frac{a^3(t)a'(t)}{a^4(t)-1} $$
$$\Gamma^{x}_{ty} = \Gamma^{x}_{yt} = \frac{a(t)a'(t)}{1-a^4(t)} $$
$$\Gamma^{y}_{tx} = \Gamma^{y}_{xt} = \frac{a(t)a'(t)}{1-a^4(t)} $$

the Ricci tensors:

$$R_{tt} = \frac{2a^2(2a'^2 -aa''(a^4-1))}{(a^4-1)^2}$$
$$R_{xx} = R_{yy} = \frac{2a^2a'^2}{a^4-1}$$
$$R_{xy}=R_{yx} = a'^2 +aa''$$where $$a = a(t), a' = \frac{da}{dt}, a'' = \frac{d^2a}{dt}$$

and i calculated the second derivative of the area of the circle:
$$ \frac{ds^2}{dt^2} = \int{[\frac{d^2}{dt^2}\sqrt{1-a^4}dxdy + 2\frac{d}{dt}\sqrt{1-a^4}(\frac{dx}{dt}dy + dx\frac{dy}{dt})+\sqrt{1-a^4}(\frac{d^2x}{dt^2}dy+\frac{dx}{dt}\frac{dy}{dt}+dx\frac{d^2y}{dt^2})]} $$
I am not sure what should i do next. any suggestions?
1680466875788.png
 
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You seem to have some sign errors in ##\Gamma^x_{ty}## and ##\Gamma^y_{tx}##.

I'm not sure how you got that expression for ##d^2S/dt^2##. What's your expression for ##S##? And what is the Ricci tensor and the geodesics followed by the test particles?
 
thank you for your reply.
I have calculated the Christoffel symbols using Mathmatica. are you sure there is a sign error? isn't it that: $$\Gamma^{y}_{ty} = \Gamma^{y}_{yt}$$?

If it's not the case i will try to calculate agin but it according to Mathmatica it should be the signs (else i don't understand what you ment).
Second, the expression for $S$ is: $$S = \int{\sqrt{g^(2)}dxdy}$$ as i mentiond.
 
Yes, the signs were just an overall sign that you lost - just a typo it seems, fine.

How are you getting from that expression for ##S## to the second derivative of area, was what I wanted to know. I was hoping you would show a few steps in the derivation.
 
i attach here the calculation in the photos.

This is how i understood to take the second derivative respected to time. I understood that dx and dy are also being effected.

I also show there the Geodesic equations i have calculated using the Christoffel symbols.
can you please explain what overall sign i lost in the Christoffel symbols?
 

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I'll double check my Christoffel symbols.

The problem with your approach to the derivative of the area is that I think the limits of integration are time dependent, so you need to carry out the integral before computing the derivative, I think.
 
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Rechecked my Christoffel symbols and you are correct - apologies. I missed that you'd taken the minus sign into the denominator.
 
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Thank you very much for responding. i am not sure i understood what you are saying about the derivative of the area. I carry the integral all the way.
the integration of the integral should be:
for y: $$ -\sqrt{R^2-x^2}<y<\sqrt{R^2-x^2}$$
and for x: $$-R<x<R$$

That's how i understad it so farm, so what do you mean by saying they are time dependent?
 
edoofir said:
i am not sure i understood what you are saying about the derivative of the area.
The point is that ##R## depends on ##t##, so I don't think ##\frac{d^2}{dt^2}\int\sqrt{g^{(2)}}dxdy## is the same as ##\int\frac{d^2}{dt^2}\sqrt{g^{(2)}}dxdy##.

In any case, do you have an expression for ##R(t)##?
 
  • #10
I understood it is not the same, this is why I used the derivation of a product rule and got the expression i got. (I attached a photo of how i got it).

Yes, i have expression for the Ricci tensors (if that's what you mean):

$$R_{tt} = \frac{2a^2(2a'^2 -aa''(a^4-1))}{(a^4-1)^2}$$
$$R_{xx} = R_{yy} = \frac{2a^2a'^2}{a^4-1}$$
$$R_{xy}=R_{yx} = a'^2 +aa''$$where $$a = a(t), a' = \frac{da}{dt}, a'' = \frac{d^2a}{dt}$$
 
  • #11
I'm struggling to read your screenshots on my phone. Deriving the geodesic equations myself, I now think that the particles do not change coordinates, so their positions always satisfy ##x^2+y^2=R^2## where ##R## is an arbitrary constant, nothing to do with any tensor.

I think you are supposed to be calculating the second derivative of the area enclosed by the ring of test particles, which is the region defined as ##x^2+y^2\leq R^2##. I don't understand why you don't do this integral directly - neither ##a## nor ##R## is a function of ##x## or ##y## so it looks to me to be trivial. Then you can simply differentiate; I assume this will lead you to something that looks like the Ricci scalar.
 

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