Something funny happened on the way to neutrality

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the chemical compound sodium diacetate, its formation, and its relation to other acetate compounds. Participants explore its properties, potential misconceptions about its structure, and its applications in food products. The conversation includes elements of chemistry, particularly regarding crosslinking proteins and the nature of chemical compounds.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses surprise at the existence of sodium diacetate, initially believing it to be a misunderstanding of chemical nomenclature.
  • Another participant questions whether calcium diacetate could precipitate as calcium triacetate, indicating a curiosity about related compounds.
  • A participant mentions that sodium diacetate is used in dry salad dressing mixes, suggesting its practical applications.
  • One participant recalls sodium diacetate being found in seasonings but is uncertain about its exact composition, prompting a suggestion to look it up.
  • Another participant proposes that sodium diacetate could be viewed as a compound formed by sodium acetate and acetic acid, possibly in a hydrated form.
  • A different perspective suggests that sodium diacetate might represent an interesting crystalline form where sodium acetate and acetic acid molecules crystallize together in a specific ratio.
  • One participant introduces potassium diacetate, indicating interest in other similar compounds.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and assumptions about sodium diacetate and related compounds. There is no consensus on the exact nature of these compounds or their formation, and multiple viewpoints are presented without resolution.

Contextual Notes

Some claims about the composition and properties of sodium diacetate and related compounds remain unverified, and participants rely on personal knowledge and external sources for clarification.

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TL;DR
A thought experiment goes wrong!
I watched a “What Are We Eating?” video by Wolfe Pit about a cheap steak being real meat or just glued trimmings. My interest was in the glue itself since I have a professional interest in crosslinking proteins. Anyway, the narrator goes through the ingredient list and comes to sodium diacetate. I think, “Hoo boy! Some genius thinks that either sodium is divalent or that acetate has a formal charge of 1/2! That’s rich, isn’t it? People who manufacture our “food” don’t know simple chemistry! A bit scary.

But then I check just to make sure... I was wrong ONCE. OMG! Wrong again! It’s a real thing! There really is such a thing as sodium diacetate. It forms a solid with a reproducible molecular formula. Has its very own entry in the Merck Index (8555 in the 11thEd). So if I take acetic acid and titrate it to half way to the endpoint, I make a new compound?

Yeah, at least once its dried to a powder.
 
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CAS[126-96-5]

What’s next? If that’s true, then shouldn’t calcium diacetate be able to precipitate as the triacetate?

World. Rocked.

Calcium triacetate, CAS[66905-25-7]
 
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Yep, it is used in dry salad dressing mixes.

Haven't seen triacetate though.
 
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Yes, I too have heard of sodium diacetate, but forgot exactly what it is. It is also found in some seasonings. I believe some mixture or combination of sodium acetate and acetic acid. I don't remember. Try look it up.

See if this helps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_diacetate
 
I assume its a compound like a hydrate. Start with sodium acetate and add a molecule of acetic acid.
 
My approach was that it is just an interesting crystalline form of the mixture, where each sodium acetate is accompanied by an acetic acid molecule.

In a way similar to basic or mixed salts (alum type), where things that are otherwise independent (and can be separated) crystallize together in a stoichiometric ratio.
 
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And potassium diacetate CAS [4251-29-0]