Speaking of concepts where CLEAR definitions

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The discussion centers on the ethical implications of ignorance, particularly in relation to science and personal beliefs. It questions whether individuals who prioritize their happiness over factual reality, especially in scientific contexts, are acting unethically. The conversation highlights how people often distort scientific principles to fit their arguments, leading to a form of willful ignorance. This is exemplified through the lens of religion, where differing interpretations of texts can result in radically different beliefs, illustrating the human tendency to seek confirmation of pre-existing views. The challenge for scientists is to combat biases and educate the public, particularly when misinformation is perpetuated by media. The dialogue also touches on the broader societal impact of such ignorance, suggesting that it can hinder progress in areas like climate change. Ultimately, the discussion raises questions about the balance between personal belief systems and the pursuit of collective knowledge and truth.
  • #31


Sorry! said:
People understood what I was saying fine I guess they are just bored and want to have fun?
Well, I'll take this bullet.

Can you state the point/question again for those of us who missed it the first time? Your first post has no meat to chew on.
 
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  • #32


Sorry! said:
1)I assume he does this so that the concepts can fit to whatever he is arguing for or so that he can argue against them more easily. Is this unethical?

2)Does being happy with your thoughts take precedent over reality.

3) scientific method. Someone can alter it, or simplify it to the point where it doesn't even make sense any more but it's no longer the same method they just think it is...

4) I think that ignorance occurs when people place their happiness above the continued sucess of humanity. This occurs frequently in religion (read Nietzche regarding this) but it also occurs in the general community such as with global warming. Some people will just be ignorant continually and allow global warming to get out of hand.

5)
And I would discuss what I was talking about with this person but it has to do with religion so I decided to leave that out. You can substitute any popular ignorant thought and it would suffice though... For instance earlier I posted about global warming.

In a nutshell:
Is a person being unethical if they are being ignorant. Choosing their own personal happiness over humanity.
 
  • #33


Sorry! said:
Ignorance to me in this sense means the act of being ignorant.

Okay, then, are you talking about "willful ignorance" as opposed to simply not-knowing-any-better-type-ignorance?
 
  • #34


Sorry! said:
In a nutshell:
Is a person being unethical if they are being ignorant. Choosing their own personal happiness over humanity.
Ah. I see. OK.


No. It is every person's right to pursue their own happiness (absent hurting others).

.. I was going to back that up with more stuff, but I realized it needs no qualification or enhancement. Simply, full stop.
 
  • #35


Sorry! said:
The nonsensical replies came after it got moved from the philosophy section hahahaha. Obviously when you first post something it isn't a discussion YET. In my post just now I said this would be a discussion of ethics.EDIT:

And I would discuss what I was talking about with this person but it has to do with religion so I decided to leave that out. You can substitute any popular ignorant thought and it would suffice though... For instance earlier I posted about global warming.

I initially made a pointless post because this is GD and I had no idea what you were trying to get at. I would have asked for clarification, but I knew that you would end up clarifying yourself anyway (which you have). That's part of what's wonderful about GD. It wasn't poking fun at you, it was poking around at your post more or less. Read your original post and tell me it makes perfect sense.

EDIT: I agree with you in the sense that if someone has a decision to make that affects others, then it's unethical to be ignorant.
 
  • #36


I'm having a semantics issue with the word "ignorant(ce)". In the absence of a clear definition, I can't see a clear path to discussing ethics in relation to it.
 
  • #37


IwillBeGood said:
Being stupid is lovelier than being smart
most ignorant people are cute. I love to be friends with them

No one would want to be always in touch with too smart men if s/she is not one of them! :smile:

Or it could just make you feel really intelligent. And in respect to your last sentence, surely that would apply to yourself and a more ignorant person? With you being the 'too smart' side of things in your case.

Jared
 
  • #38


GeorginaS said:
I'm having a semantics issue with the word "ignorant(ce)". In the absence of a clear definition, I can't see a clear path to discussing ethics in relation to it.

This seems to be the key, and perhaps is the reason we're all ignorant of the discussion Sorry! is attempting to start. It's also likely the reason we found it in GD and not Philosophy, because defining key terms to allow for rational discussion are part of the philosophy forum guidelines.

The trouble I'm having is that it seems the premise of the discussion lies somewhere in the context of a conversation Sorry! had with someone somewhere else, but s/he is reluctant to share any details of that conversation. It's really hard to have a discussion when only one person knows what the context is and none of the key terms have been defined.
 
  • #39


Ok the conversation I had with this person had to do with religious scripture. In particular the Christian Bible. People believe the bible to be inerrant. That is without errors, no contridictions, all truth. When these people read the bible they go into the situation already KNOWING what they will read is true.

The person I was talking to is attending York University for biophysics. So I assumed they had general ideas about scientific thoughts etc. Since they are being educated at a undergraduate level and I have only completed high school they must know more than I.

Well he started arguing with me about how dating methods are wrong, about stars not being as far away as science claims, he argued against evolution on the grounds that speciation doesn't occur and he attempted to argue with me that sciences goal is to prove things. (I didn't agree with this I felt that science merely attempts to explain things based upon given evidence.) All this seems blatantly ignorant and in my opinion goes back to him believing the bible to be inerrant. (the list of things he argued against is actually a lot longer than this. I finally gave up talking to him but I don't understand how people can think it is ok to think like this. Just because you have the right to doesn't make it right to abuse that right.)

I sent him to multiple sciam articles many websites to do with evolution and even tried to get at him with common sense. He sent me websites too to attempt to prove his position to me. After investigating the 'scientist' I found that they were FAR in the minority and few in numbers. However, the christian public seems to take their word on things.

Interestingly enough he believes in things such as: noah's flood, all the miracles associated with the bible, gifts such as speaking in tongues or healing, that murder/suicide is caused by demons possessing people... the list goes on.

I remember reading what Nietzche wrote about ethics. I think that people who think in these terms are being unethical and hindering the progress of humanities knowledge.(which I think takes precedent over a group of people being happy.)

Note also that I said hinder not stop.
 
  • #40


I agree, as my previous posts show. Without re-stating all I said previously, basically, they read the bible, take it literally or as close to and then ignore all scientific evidence.

What I cannot understand is how when given all the evidence available, they can simply turn round and say "it's like that because god wants it like that" or "god skews results". I just can't see any reason why a person can take the religious texts, which all conflict and make certain things (such as murder) not crimes in certain 'stories', simply believe it without there being a shred of evidence to back up any claims made within those texts. Whereas all the evidence that backs up science is dissmissed either as wrong or because god made it that way. This isn't striding forward and an attempt at development, it is an attempt to keep us where we are, if it wasn't for science and everyone remained completely religious, we would have nothing like the technology we have today and would not be having this debate (probably praying instead).

I personnally don't care what a person believes, but I simply do not wish to believe, nor have you try to convince me that the big pixie in the sky exists. I can't say I've ever had a Quantum Physicist pop round on a sunday morning and try to discuss the finer points of Quantum Mechanics with me. If forced, my religion is Jedi and I believe in the great teapot orbiting between Earth and Mars.

Jared
 
  • #41


I'm hindu. Let me just get that out there.

This guy didnt know that i was, and he came up to sell me his copy of the Bhagavad Gita (one of the religious books some hindus consult now and then when we're troubled with life). His copy was a small paper back no bigger than 120 pages - 200 pages. I told him I had one at home that was bigger than the dictionary, with clear cut translations and explanations of all the things Krishna said to Arjuna.

He said mine was wrong, and that I should buy his book.

What
the
hell
 
  • #42


protonchain said:
I'm hindu. Let me just get that out there.

This guy didnt know that i was, and he came up to sell me his copy of the Bhagavad Gita (one of the religious books some hindus consult now and then when we're troubled with life). His copy was a small paper back no bigger than 120 pages - 200 pages. I told him I had one at home that was bigger than the dictionary, with clear cut translations and explanations of all the things Krishna said to Arjuna.

He said mine was wrong, and that I should buy his book.

What
the
hell

Exactly
 
  • #43


moose said:
I knew this guy once. Why would he do this though. Maybe it was so he could get there. But I don't think so.

Wait what.

lisab said:
omg I think I used to date that guy.

Yes lisab,it brings back fond memories.
 
  • #44


Sorry! said:
I remember reading what Nietzche wrote about ethics. I think that people who think in these terms are being unethical and hindering the progress of humanities knowledge.(which I think takes precedent over a group of people being happy.)
It is still his right to pursue his own happiness. He is not forcing himself on anyone who is not already converted.

Utopia (or some other perfect world) does not mean that everyone has to agree with everyone else.

You can't state categorically and objectively that "his philosophy of life is wrong and should be corrected".
 
  • #45


This is true assuming people keep their beliefs to themselves. However it is not the case. Everywhere I turn my head I see these people causing troubles. Global warming is a major point for our modern day society. As is creationist arguing that creation should be taught in science class. Or that evolution shouldn't be taught.

Most wars have been fought because of ignorance.

It would of course be a completely fair point to question who is the ignorant one... and to that I would just say that if we were all rational people and critical thinkers we would not even need to question what counts as ignorant.

To claim that say Hitler supported the holocaust with logic or evidence of any sort is to show you also think that it was a rational decision. Was it though? Really? Substitute holocaust and Hitler for other events... Scientific method doesn't wage wars and it's intention is not to spark debate. Merely to find a answer based on evidence. Human ignorance and arrogance is the problem.
 
  • #46


jarednjames said:
It's human nature to look only for what you want to see. No matter how many facts you are presented with, you will automatically disregard them until you find something to support your argument, regardless of how extreme/unbelievable. That's something scientists need to work against, they cannot afford to have these biases and require an open mind.

There's an interesting emergent phenomenon that happens when everyone does have biases. People seek out the evidence that fits their beliefs and ignore the rest. But the number of people supporting a particular biased viewpoint is somewhat proportional to the plausibility of the opinion. If we didn't have people with biased viewpoints fighting to find evidence for their claim VS. the commonly accepted viewpoint, it would be much harder to make scientific progress.

The fact is, humans are not capable of actually making "unbiased" decisions. Every thought we have is biased on our past experiences -- as they should be! This allows people to reject hypothesis based on biases they have learned about how the world works, and it allows them to focus their efforts on where they personally think the truth is.

All the major advances in science...evolution, gravity, the solar system, electricity, relativity...all of these ideas came from people who's strongly biased opinions caused them to fight against the commonly held viewpoints.
 
  • #47


junglebeast said:
There's an interesting emergent phenomenon that happens when everyone does have biases. People seek out the evidence that fits their beliefs and ignore the rest. But the number of people supporting a particular biased viewpoint is somewhat proportional to the plausibility of the opinion. If we didn't have people with biased viewpoints fighting to find evidence for their claim VS. the commonly accepted viewpoint, it would be much harder to make scientific progress.

The fact is, humans are not capable of actually making "unbiased" decisions. Every thought we have is biased on our past experiences -- as they should be! This allows people to reject hypothesis based on biases they have learned about how the world works, and it allows them to focus their efforts on where they personally think the truth is.

All the major advances in science...evolution, gravity, the solar system, electricity, relativity...all of these ideas came from people who's strongly biased opinions caused them to fight against the commonly held viewpoints.

I would never go to say that people don't hold biases or make decisions based on these biases. Its part of critical thinking though. Just because right now I am biased towards say evolution doesn't mean if a theory comes tomorrow I will not listen to it.
 
  • #48


junglebeast said:
There's an interesting emergent phenomenon that happens when everyone does have biases. People seek out the evidence that fits their beliefs and ignore the rest. But the number of people supporting a particular biased viewpoint is somewhat proportional to the plausibility of the opinion. If we didn't have people with biased viewpoints fighting to find evidence for their claim VS. the commonly accepted viewpoint, it would be much harder to make scientific progress.

The fact is, humans are not capable of actually making "unbiased" decisions. Every thought we have is biased on our past experiences -- as they should be! This allows people to reject hypothesis based on biases they have learned about how the world works, and it allows them to focus their efforts on where they personally think the truth is.

All the major advances in science...evolution, gravity, the solar system, electricity, relativity...all of these ideas came from people who's strongly biased opinions caused them to fight against the commonly held viewpoints.

Of course, I would certainly agree there must be some biases. What I was trying to refer to there are extreme biases. I should have made it more clear. People and scientists are most definitely biased and it aids progress as people argue the various hypothesis with their biases playing a part in it. However, there are some arguments so extremem and unplausible that they must not allow them to intervene and circumvent progress. I'm sorry, but any form of religion and its associated laws should play no part in the governing of a country and the beliefs held by religious people are ridiculous at best and so far fetched that to allow them to be part of our scientific understanding of the world is a hinderence. This is not just something that applies to religion, look at global warming, people are ignoring all evidence for it except for that which says we are the cause. All the evidence I have seen points to us simply adding to the problem and not being the sole cause. Because of the way it is portrayed in the media and such people have a very biased view of it and don't want to here anything other than the facts that support themselves.

Jared
 
  • #49


jarednjames said:
However, there are some arguments so extremem and unplausible that they must not allow them to intervene and circumvent progress. I'm sorry, but any form of religion and its associated laws should play no part in the governing of a country and the beliefs held by religious people are ridiculous at best and so far fetched that to allow them to be part of our scientific understanding of the world is a hinderence. This is not just something that applies to religion, look at global warming, people are ignoring all evidence for it except for that which says we are the cause.

Yeah, some people are not very smart. Unfortunately, the smart people have more intellectually stimulating things to do than diddle with politics -- so it's the dumb people that run things.
 
  • #50


junglebeast said:
Yeah, some people are not very smart. Unfortunately, the smart people have more intellectually stimulating things to do than diddle with politics -- so it's the dumb people that run things.

Something we can both agree on there. Although they certainly know how to fiddle the system (expenses etc).

Jared
 
  • #51


Sorry! said:
Ok the conversation I had with this person had to do with religious scripture. In particular the Christian Bible. People believe the bible to be inerrant. That is without errors, no contridictions, all truth. When these people read the bible they go into the situation already KNOWING what they will read is true.

The person I was talking to is attending York University for biophysics. So I assumed they had general ideas about scientific thoughts etc. Since they are being educated at a undergraduate level and I have only completed high school they must know more than I.

Well he started arguing with me about how dating methods are wrong, about stars not being as far away as science claims, he argued against evolution on the grounds that speciation doesn't occur and he attempted to argue with me that sciences goal is to prove things. (I didn't agree with this I felt that science merely attempts to explain things based upon given evidence.) All this seems blatantly ignorant and in my opinion goes back to him believing the bible to be inerrant. (the list of things he argued against is actually a lot longer than this. I finally gave up talking to him but I don't understand how people can think it is ok to think like this. Just because you have the right to doesn't make it right to abuse that right.)

I sent him to multiple sciam articles many websites to do with evolution and even tried to get at him with common sense. He sent me websites too to attempt to prove his position to me. After investigating the 'scientist' I found that they were FAR in the minority and few in numbers. However, the christian public seems to take their word on things.

Interestingly enough he believes in things such as: noah's flood, all the miracles associated with the bible, gifts such as speaking in tongues or healing, that murder/suicide is caused by demons possessing people... the list goes on.

I remember reading what Nietzche wrote about ethics. I think that people who think in these terms are being unethical and hindering the progress of humanities knowledge.(which I think takes precedent over a group of people being happy.)

Note also that I said hinder not stop.

Ah, I see, another good ol' religion bashing session. So much for science never starting any fights...

Here's my simple solution. If the guy is studying biophysics, then he knows how to think about scientific issues. If he believes that radioisotope dating methods are faulty, explain to him how it works: mention the necessary assumptions, the applicable physical laws, and the logical conclusions. If he believes that the universe is 6,000 years old, explain how cosmological redshift works. If he rejects evolutionary theory...ask someone else, since I'm a physicist. He's obviously intelligent enough to understand these things, and I think the creationist arguments against these scientific truths are weak enough that even he will ultimately be able to see past them. Creation science usually rests on poking holes in accepted scientific theories instead of proposing testable propositions, and if you sit down with this person and explain the facts instead of attacking him, you might get somewhere.

The problem isn't that he believes the Bible is inerrant. The problem is that some guy (possibly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind" told him that evolution and cosmology are inherently atheistic and that being faithful to God necessitates opposition to certain scientific truths. Bashing him over the head about how he's just another ignorant/arrogant theist who needs to accept an atheistic worldview is only going to solidify him in that position. Insulting people rarely has any positive effect.

jarednjames said:
I'm sorry, but any form of religion and its associated laws should play no part in the governing of a country and the beliefs held by religious people are ridiculous at best and so far fetched that to allow them to be part of our scientific understanding of the world is a hinderence. This is not just something that applies to religion, look at global warming, people are ignoring all evidence for it except for that which says we are the cause.

I'll agree right off the bat that if you're talking about creation science not being a part of our scientific understanding, then I agree (at least until those guys can produce a testable theory). However, to say that "religion and its associated laws should play no part in the governing of a country" is, in my opinion, quite irresponsible. As you yourself admitted, everyone has biases, and in a democratic government these biases will enter into people's decisions about how the nation ought to be run. What you are doing is selectively restricting the biases that can inform people's political judgments. You are, in effect, dictating how voters ought to think. Would it be OK for me to say that conservatives shouldn't allow their conservativism to influence their votes (I wouldn't mind this actually, but hopefully you see my point)? Or how about not allowing poor people to be informed by their poverty when they vote?

What meter do you use in determining what biases can and can't affect people's legislative decisions? I hope that meter isn't "stuff I don't like," because then you are locking the nation into a single political mindset, and it is impossible to produce any government besides the one that you desire. The very notion of democracy then becomes meaningless, and one might as well have a dictator whose political views happen to agree with yours. Instead of telling people how to think, it seems like a better idea to use intellectual persuasion to make your political views prevail.

Consider global warming. We all know why the anti-global warming crowd tries to deny an observable effect. It isn't because they doubt the human contribution to global warming, rather it's because they know that efforts to curb global warming require us to enact economic policies that they don't like. They're not really as stupid as you think; they just don't want to foot the bill for environmentally friendly policies. Maybe you think that people shouldn't be allowed to support political platforms that benefit them at the cost of the world's well-being. But again, I think you'll see that this negates an important aspect of democracy.
 
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  • #52
WRT to the 'government' issue. No government should allow religious beliefs to influence them. A government should run a country for the people, all people, regardless of religion, sex, sexual-preference etc. To allow religious beliefs into a debate regarding how a country should be run opens up the possibility of introducing laws which are unethical.

Here's one from a country where religion defines law:

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/200...ns-new-law-allowing-men-to-rape-their-wives/"

http://infidelsarecool.com/2009/04/19/update-new-afghan-law-does-not-permit-rape-but-permits-starvation-of-wives-who-withhold-sex/"

I also believe the US constitution states religion and law should remain seperate. Any person in politics should leave their religious beliefs to the side when discussing the running of a country and defining new laws.

Until someone provides evidence that backs up any religious claims, they should be dismissed. I would like to note I hold this view of all things, scientific included. No evidence to show me, no belief from me. Simple.

When I say some biases are needed, I mean so long as they are justifiable and acceptable (. A bias, as someone put earlier of 'the holocaust being right' is certainly not acceptable and should play no part. You say meter, well ok, let's set it shall we, if you can provide clear evidence which backs up your hypothesis/theory etc., then it becomes acceptable to have a bias towards that belief. If however you cannot, which is the way religions and most crackpot ideals are, then they should not be acceptable and influence any decision making that occurs.
Your poverty example is one where people do have evidence to back it up, (poor housing, healthcare and so on), and yes, it should influence their vote for a party who will help them. Where as a person who says "i won't vote for (example) labour because they advocate teaching evolution in schools" is forming that opinion purely on the back of unproven religious beliefs or un conventional beliefs in a far fetched creation idea.

Right, more of a political thing than anything else on global warming here. But let's ignore GW for now and let me give my opinion on democracy, so you can see things (hopefully) as I see them.

I like democracy, everyone gets a say in what goes on. But, to me it's a good concept but not a good solution when it comes to running a country. You see I think only people who actually understand the subject matter at hand very well, and, the people who the proposal will affect should be allowed to vote on them. Let's say, the government wants to build two nuclear reactors in south england. Now, they put it to the vote on the subject. I understand the people around the areas they will be built in getting a say, and I understand the scientists for and against them getting a say. But I don't see why a scottish highlands sheep farmer should get a say in the matter, they don't directly affect him and unless he's hiding his credentials well, he isn't going to have a comprehensive knowledge nuclear power. To me, his vote is not worth anything as it will be purely opinion based. Opinions which may be biased strongly based on false information.

A bias, based on a good, strong, knowledge of the subject matter can certainly be a good thing. A bias based on nothing more than faith, media influence or a very limited knowledge is a bad thing and potentialy dangerous to a country/project.

Jared
 
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  • #53


Sorry! said:
To claim that say Hitler supported the holocaust with logic or evidence of any sort is to show you also think that it was a rational decision. Was it though? Really? Substitute holocaust and Hitler for other events...
I call Godwin's Law.

"... the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis [or Hitler] has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress."

Thread locked. You lose. :biggrin:
 
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  • #54


DaveC426913 said:
I call Godwin's Law.

Ha, I like it. Never heard of that one.
 
  • #55


jarednjames said:
Ha, I like it. Never heard of that one.

me neither actually. lol. I don't think the reference to Hitler or holocaust is because the topic is old but because it is easily understood.
 
  • #56


Sorry! said:
me neither actually. lol. I don't think the reference to Hitler or holocaust is because the topic is old but because it is easily understood.
What it is is melodramatic.
 
  • #57


Sorry! said:
This is true assuming people keep their beliefs to themselves. However it is not the case. Everywhere I turn my head I see these people causing troubles. Global warming is a major point for our modern day society. As is creationist arguing that creation should be taught in science class. Or that evolution shouldn't be taught.

Most wars have been fought because of ignorance.

It would of course be a completely fair point to question who is the ignorant one... and to that I would just say that if we were all rational people and critical thinkers we would not even need to question what counts as ignorant.

Sorry!, by what yardsticks do you measure
- what things are important not to be ignorant of
- what things help versus hinder the human race

Do you not see that these things are not objective? Do you not see that I (and every other person) could probably list a dozen things each off the top of our heads that you are ignorant of in our opinion?

Why do you think your own personal idea of what's important is somehow superior to anyone else's?
 
  • #58


DaveC426913 said:
Sorry!, by what yardsticks do you measure
- what things are important not to be ignorant of
- what things help versus hinder the human race

Do you not see that these things are not objective? Do you not see that I (and every other person) could probably list a dozen things each off the top of our heads that you are ignorant of in our opinion?

Why do you think your own personal idea of what's important is somehow superior to anyone else's?

I already state that in my other post so clearly I understand that ignorance is subjective. I never once stated that my opinions are of greater value comparative. I made the broad statement that IGNORANCE IS UNETHICAL. Where in this can you point to me that I have stated that my idea is superior? You are making comparative efforts of my beliefs instead of the actually concept of ignorance. You do not understand what it is I'm speaking of in this sense I think... that's not my problem.

Infact jared has already discussed this point:

Until someone provides evidence that backs up any religious claims, they should be dismissed. I would like to note I hold this view of all things, scientific included. No evidence to show me, no belief from me. Simple.
 
  • #59


Sorry! said:
Well then I can see the majority of the people who replied would rather attempt to make me a fool and redicule. Well done guys. I applaud you, seriously, you got me looking quite stupid over here.

Anyways. Yes as the other people have noticed I was speaking of IGNORANCE being UNETHICAL not my shampoo.

I think that ignorance occurs when people place their happiness above the continued sucess of humanity. This occurs frequently in religion (read Nietzche regarding this) but it also occurs in the general community such as with global warming. Some people will just be ignorant continually and allow global warming to get out of hand.

So I think ignorance in most cases is unethical.

do you know what ignorance is ?
 
  • #60


Sorry! said:
I already state that in my other post so clearly I understand that ignorance is subjective. I never once stated that my opinions are of greater value comparative. I made the broad statement that IGNORANCE IS UNETHICAL. Where in this can you point to me that I have stated that my idea is superior? You are making comparative efforts of my beliefs instead of the actually concept of ignorance. You do not understand what it is I'm speaking of in this sense I think... that's not my problem.
If something is subjective, how could it possbily be unethical to do it?

"What you're doing there is wrong in my opinion."
"It is not wrong in my opinion."
"You win. Your logic is inescapable."
 

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