Special relativity and rest mass of a photon

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of the rest mass of a photon and its implications for work done and energy. Participants explore the relationship between mass, energy, and momentum in the context of special relativity, questioning classical mechanics' applicability to photons.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question how work can be done on a photon if work is defined as kinetic energy, which depends on mass, given that the rest mass of a photon is zero.
  • There is a query about the equation E=PC, leading to the assertion that if P (momentum) depends on mass, then the energy E of a photon must also be zero.
  • One participant argues that classical mechanics does not apply to entities moving at the speed of light and emphasizes the need for special relativity, suggesting that zero mass does not imply zero momentum.
  • Another participant provides the equation for photon energy, E= \frac{\hbar c}{\lambda}, and mentions that an observer in relative motion with a photon may perceive it as having relative mass, referencing E=mc².
  • A later reply challenges the notion of perceiving mass in a photon, asking for experimental evidence supporting this claim.
  • Another participant reiterates that all observers are always in motion with respect to light at speed c and emphasizes that photons are massless.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the implications of a photon's rest mass and its energy and momentum. There is no consensus on whether a photon can be perceived as having mass or how work can be defined in this context.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in understanding the relationship between mass, energy, and momentum for massless particles, as well as the dependence on the definitions used in special relativity.

Lizwi
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1) How can get work done on a photon because work done = kinetic energy it depends on mass, but the rest mass of a photon is zero
2) From this equation E=PC , does this mean E of a photon is 0 because P must be zero since it depends on mass?
 
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Lizwi said:
1) How can get work done on a photon because work done = kinetic energy it depends on mass, but the rest mass of a photon is zero
2) From this equation E=PC , does this mean E of a photon is 0 because P must be zero since it depends on mass?

Remember that classical mechanics does not work for things moving at the speed of light. You need to use special relativity instead. Just because something has zero mass doesn't mean that its momentum needs to be zero.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larmor_formula

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham-Lorentz_force

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham-Lorentz-Dirac_force#Abraham.E2.80.93Lorentz.E2.80.93Dirac_Forcehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...stored_in_an_electrostatic_field_distribution

121ffb796bb69c4862708c38d8bdb93b.png
 
Lizwi said:
1) How can get work done on a photon because work done = kinetic energy it depends on mass, but the rest mass of a photon is zero
2) From this equation E=PC , does this mean E of a photon is 0 because P must be zero since it depends on mass?

Hi Liziwi,

The equation for finding the energy of a photon is
E= \frac{\hbar c}{\lambda }
Where E is energy, {\hbar } is Planck's constant, c is the speed of light, and {\lambda } is the wavelength of the light.
Also, because E=mc2, an observer in relative motion with a photon will perceive it as having relative mass.
 
Mark M said:
Also, because E=mc2, an observer in relative motion with a photon will perceive it as having relative mass.

Really? What experiment does he employ to perceive this "mass" of a photon?
 
Mark M said:
... an observer in relative motion with a photon will perceive it as having relative mass.

All observers are always in motion wrt to light with speed c. Photons are massless.
 

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