Speculation of FDA research projected results, Ph in food processing

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the pH levels in food processing, specifically regarding the safety of pickling cucumbers using vinegar and water solutions. Participants explore the implications of pH measurements for food safety, particularly in relation to FDA guidelines and personal experimentation in recipe development.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • One participant outlines a recipe for non-fermented pickles using a 50% vinegar and 50% water solution, calculating the resulting pH based on the pH of cucumbers and brine.
  • Another participant challenges the assumption that the pH of a mixture can be averaged from the pH of its components, suggesting that this is not how pH works in general.
  • A different participant proposes an alternative approach using lemon juice to achieve the same pH as FDA recommendations, questioning if blending the ingredients would yield a safe recipe.
  • Concerns are raised about the importance of maintaining a pH below 4.6 to prevent botulism, emphasizing the risks of incorrect calculations.
  • One participant shares their experience starting a food processing business in Thailand, noting differences in food safety standards between the FDA and European regulations.
  • Another participant suggests that determining the required amount of acid experimentally may be more practical than relying on calculations.
  • A participant discusses their experience with pH meters, expressing skepticism about the accuracy of certain models and sharing their testing results.
  • One participant expresses doubt about the reliability of pH meters with high precision, indicating a lack of trust in the accuracy of the last digit displayed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the reliability of pH calculations and measurements, with some advocating for experimental approaches while others emphasize the importance of adhering to established safety guidelines. There is no consensus on the best method for ensuring food safety in the context of pickling.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in pH measurement accuracy and the potential for variations in results based on different methods of preparation and measurement. The discussion reflects a range of assumptions about the relationship between pH levels and food safety.

Who May Find This Useful

Individuals interested in food processing, home canning, and food safety standards may find this discussion relevant, particularly those exploring alternative recipes and methods for pickling.

AHVincent
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Hi Everyone,

First of all, I'm not a scientist ;)

But I'm doing some experimentation and just want to confirm if I am on the right track.

FDA pickle recipe for non fermented pickles has the following parameters:

50% vinegar
50% water

I am using standard commercial 5% distilled white vinegar

- My water/vinegar combined pH is 2.8
- According to FDA cucumbers have a pH of 5.1-5.7

1. So pH of 5.1 cucumbers + 2.8 pH brine = 7.9/2 = pH 3.95
2. So pH of 5.7 cucumbers + 2.8 pH brine = 8.5/2 = pH 4.25

Now that the FDA takes for granted that the public might use inaccurate pH meters with an inaccuracy of ±.2 pH.

The safe pH for food processing in a water bath caner is 4.6

Conclusively:

This recipe will result in a food product with a pH of 3.75 to 4.45, making this recipe fool proof.
 
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You can safely assume pH of the mixture is never average of pHs of the mixed solutions.

That is, you can design such solutions, but that's not how the pH works in general.
 
mmmm

what if I design the recipe to the same pH as FDA recommendations but substitute the acid for lemon juice, but match the pH of 2.8

Then mix the cucumbers in the blender with the brine and take the pH.

Would that be an indication that I am on the right track?

Isn't the pH of the blended ingredients + recommended acidic brine solution enough to make the recipe safe?
 
Sorry, but I have no idea what is your problem. I have never heard about anyone using pH for pickling cucumbers
 
Hi Borek,

Problem is that the pH needs to be under 4.6 for food processing, getting calculations wrong could cause botulism and be fatal ;)
 
It's a pretty long story I guess...

I'm starting a food processing business in Thailand, FDA recommendations make food that taste bitter and to acidic.

They overkill the recommendations, unlike in Europe where standards are more relax.

So I'm trying to develop my own recipes safely, and then get them approved by Thai FDA.
 
I am afraid in such a case pH calculation is a nightmare. It will be much easier to determine required amount of acid experimentally.
 
Hi Borek,

Too bad I just registered yesterday...by looking at your signature I could have bought a meter from you ;)

Just bought a ph 80 HM Digital but not accurate enough at .2 accurancy, so returned it and expecting the pH 200 at .02 , I hope they are good meters? Customer service is very good.

I did some testing in the blender and my predictions are right on the spot.

FDA recipes are overkill safe, so now I can calculate the pH before the recipes and then test in the blender to confirm, most are below 4.0 so it will be fine.

Cheers
 
I am not selling pH meters.

I would not believe in 0.02 accuracy - while it can be displayed, I would not trust the last digit.