Spin/angular magnetism Bohr magneton quantum thing

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    Bohr Magnetism Quantum
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concepts of spin, angular magnetism, and the Bohr magneton, particularly in the context of how different types of magnetic materials (diamagnetic, paramagnetic, and ferromagnetic) respond to external magnetic fields. Participants explore theoretical implications and practical observations related to these phenomena.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that a diamagnetic sphere will be attracted to the north pole of a bar magnet due to an induced magnetic dipole moment, while others assert that diamagnetism is always repulsive.
  • There is a discussion about Lenz's Law and how it relates to induced currents in conductors due to changing magnetic fields.
  • Some participants note that the effect of diamagnetism is generally weak compared to paramagnetism and that temperature plays a significant role in magnetization.
  • It is suggested that a diamagnetic material will be repelled by both poles of a magnet, while paramagnetic materials are attracted to the south pole and repelled by the north pole.
  • Ferromagnetic materials are described as having the ability to form permanent magnets, with a discussion on how magnetic domains behave when an external field is applied or removed.
  • Participants express a desire for clarity on the differences between a circle and a sphere in the context of this discussion, with some emphasizing the importance of visual representation.
  • There is mention of Maxwell's equations and their relevance to understanding the relationships between different magnetic phenomena, although participants express uncertainty about how to articulate this connection.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the behavior of diamagnetic materials in response to magnetic poles, with some asserting repulsion and others suggesting attraction under certain conditions. The discussion remains unresolved on several points, particularly regarding the nuances of magnetic interactions and the definitions of terms used.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge that the effects of magnetism depend on various factors, including temperature and the nature of the material. There is also recognition that the terminology used (ferromagnetism, paramagnetism, diamagnetism) describes emergent phenomena that may require further exploration.

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So I want to get this whole spin/angular magnetism Bohr magneton quantum thing straight. Suppose a diamagnetic sphere lies at the origin. Let's talk in the x-y space for simplicity. Let's bring a bar magnet in along the x-axis approaching zero from the right.

If the north pole of a bar magnet is brought near the circle, the circle will be attracted to the bar magnet due to the induced magnetic dipole moment in the material, which wants to move away from a region of increasing magnetic field. These forces are relatively weak and would require a very strong external field to have any noticeable physical effect. This would also depend on the temperature of the material considering Curie's approximation ##C = M \frac{B_{ext}}{T}##. If the temperature is too high, the magnetic domains inside the material would become agitated, and the dipoles in each respective domain won't line up to produce a strong net dipole.

If the south pole is brought near the circle instead, it should be expected that the circle be repelled due to the induced dipole.

If the material is now paramagnetic, it should be repelled by the N-Pole and attracted by the S-Pole. This is due to how the induced dipole lines up with the external field. The material needs to be kept quite cool and a decently strong external field must be applied to notice anything.

If the material is now ferromagnetic, a similar result to that of a paramagnetic material can be observed. A relatively weak external field can be applied due to the magnetic nature of the material. That is, the material already exerts its own magnetic field intrinsically and any external field would show obvious results.

Does this make sense?
 
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Zondrina said:
So I want to get this whole spin/angular magnetism Bohr magneton quantum thing straight. Suppose a diamagnetic sphere lies at the origin. Let's talk in the x-y space for simplicity. Let's bring a bar magnet in along the x-axis approaching zero from the right.

If the north pole of a bar magnet is brought near the [sphere], the [sphere] will be attracted to the bar magnet due to the induced magnetic dipole moment in the material, which wants to move away from a region of increasing magnetic field.
Diamagnetism is always repulsive.
You are thinking of Lenz's Law: the induced current in a conductor due to changing magnetic field - the current induced produces a magnetic field opposing the change in the applied field.

Note: I replaced "circle" with "sphere" - this was what you meant right?

These forces are relatively weak and would require a very strong external field to have any noticeable physical effect. This would also depend on the temperature of the material considering Curie's approximation ##C = M \frac{B_{ext}}{T}##. If the temperature is too high, the magnetic domains inside the material would become agitated, and the dipoles in each respective domain won't line up to produce a strong net dipole.
Diamagnetism is usually a weak effect compared with paramagnetism - magnetization, in general, depends on temperature.

If the south pole is brought near the [sphere] instead, it should be expected that the [sphere] be repelled due to the induced dipole.
The diamagnetic repulsion does not depend on the pole.

If the material is now paramagnetic, it should be repelled by the N-Pole and attracted by the S-Pole. This is due to how the induced dipole lines up with the external field. The material needs to be kept quite cool and a decently strong external field must be applied to notice anything.
Paramagnetism is always attractive.

If the material is now ferromagnetic, a similar result to that of a paramagnetic material can be observed. A relatively weak external field can be applied due to the magnetic nature of the material. That is, the material already exerts its own magnetic field intrinsically and any external field would show obvious results.
Ferromagnetism is the property of being able to form into permanent magnets. In all magnetic materialls, the domains take a while to relax back to their jumbled configuration once the applied field is removed.

It's easy to get the bits mixed up.
See: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/solids/magpr.html

Later, when you start to study Maxwell's equations, the links between the different phenomena will become more clear.
 
Simon Bridge said:
Diamagnetism is always repulsive.
You are thinking of Lenz's Law: the induced current in a conductor due to changing magnetic field - the current induced produces a magnetic field opposing the change in the applied field.

Note: I replaced "circle" with "sphere" - this was what you meant right?

Diamagnetism is usually a weak effect compared with paramagnetism - magnetization, in general, depends on temperature.

The diamagnetic repulsion does not depend on the pole.

Paramagnetism is always attractive.

Ferromagnetism is the property of being able to form into permanent magnets. In all magnetic materialls, the domains take a while to relax back to their jumbled configuration once the applied field is removed.

It's easy to get the bits mixed up.
See: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/solids/magpr.html

Later, when you start to study Maxwell's equations, the links between the different phenomena will become more clear.

Yes a sphere would be the general case, but for visual simplicity I wanted to consider a 2-D case, which is why I said circle.

I also see why in the case of the diamagnetic, it is always going to be repelled. I dew an image to show this. The magnetic dipole set up in the material will always have a similar pole facing the bar magnet and so must be repelled in every case.

Similar drawings can be made for a paramagnetic material, except they will be attracted. Same deal with ferromagnetic materials.

I am familiar with Maxwell's equations, though I'm not sure how to explain how they relate to this.
 

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It's just that a circle of material is a bit different from a sphere.
You just wanted to look at it in profile - which for a sphere is any single angle ;)

Ferro-, Para-, and, Dia-, magnetism are just names for emergent phenomena.
You seem to have it straight now.
 
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