Spontaneous and stimulated emission in Planck's radiation law

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the separation of spontaneous and stimulated emission contributions within Planck's radiation law, as introduced by Einstein. Participants explore the theoretical underpinnings, mathematical derivations, and implications of these emissions in the context of quantum electrodynamics (QED) and thermal radiation.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether it is feasible to separate the Planck radiation spectrum into fractions representing spontaneous and stimulated emissions.
  • Another participant seeks clarification on how to define the separation of contributions from spontaneous and stimulated emissions based on standard derivations of the Planck spectrum.
  • A participant presents a mathematical evaluation of the contributions to the Planck spectrum, suggesting that the spontaneous emission fraction can be derived from Einstein's coefficients and coincides with Wien's distribution.
  • A correction is made regarding the identification of the fraction that coincides with Wien's distribution, clarifying that it is the spontaneous emission fraction, not the stimulated emission fraction.
  • Further elaboration is provided on the kinetic arguments for occupation numbers in a two-level system, detailing the relationships between transition rates and thermal equilibrium conditions.
  • Another participant derives expressions for the spontaneous and stimulated emission fractions, reinforcing the connection to Wien's radiation law.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the feasibility of separating the contributions of spontaneous and stimulated emissions, with some providing mathematical support for their claims. There is no clear consensus on the initial question posed, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the separation of these contributions.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes complex mathematical derivations and assumptions related to thermal equilibrium and the definitions of the coefficients involved. Some steps in the derivations are not fully resolved, and the implications of the results are still being debated.

dbabic
Messages
3
Reaction score
1
Hello,

Einstein introduced stimulated emission (along with spontaneous emission and absorption) to derive Planck's radiation law using his A and B coefficients in his 1917 paper. My question is, is it possible to separate the Planck radiation spectrum into a fraction that is spontaneous emission and a fraction that is stimulated emission? Is this even a good question? I took a simple simple approach and got the attached graph. Does anyone have an opinion on this?

Thank you...
 

Attachments

  • Slika_657.jpg
    Slika_657.jpg
    16.4 KB · Views: 175
Physics news on Phys.org
How did you define the separation in these two contributions? It's not clear to me, how to make such a split from the standard derivation of the Planck spectrum from QED.
 
Einstein's derivation assumes that all the generated EM radiation (spontaneous + stimulated) must be balanced by what's absorbed:

$$A_{21} N_2 + B_{21} N_2 \rho _{EM} (\omega ) = B_{12} N_1 \rho _{EM} (\omega )$$

where the first term is spontaneous (SPE) and the second stimulated emission (STE) and on the right is absorption. I evaluate the portion of the left side that is due to spontaneous emission. If you just divide the first term on the left side with the entire left side you get that the portion due to spontaneous emission is equal to

SPE contribution = ##1 - \exp( -\hbar\omega/kT )##
STE contribution = ##\exp( -\hbar\omega/kT )##

Now, I simply take the radiation law and multiply it by the fractions shown above to get the curve for SPE and STE.

The interesting thing is that the fraction of stimulated emission coincides exactly with Wien's distribution, which is the starting point of Einstein's arguments in the 1917 paper .
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71
Correction: the fraction of SPONTANEOUS emission coincides exactly with Wien's distribution.
 
@vanhees71 and @dbabic -- are you in agreement after the updates? We received a report that there may be confusion in this thread after some edits...

Thanks.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: jim mcnamara and Nugatory
Ok, let's do the derivation a la Einstein. It's a kinetic argument for the occupation numbers of a two-level system due to thermal radiation, i.e., the two-level system is supposed to be in thermal equilibrium at temperature ##T##. Let ##N_1## and ##N_2## be the occupation numbers of the lower and upper level with energy difference ##E_2-E_1=\hbar \omega##:
$$\dot{N}_1=A_{21} N_2+B_{21} N_2 I-B_{12} N_1 I$$
$$\dot{N}_2=-A_{21} N_2-B_{21}N_2+B_{12} N_1 \rho=-\dot{N}_1.$$
Here ##A_{21}## is the transition rate for spontaneous emission, ##B_{21}## the rate for spontaneous emission, and ##B_{12}## for absorption, ##I## is the intensity (energy density) of the radiation.

In thermal equilibrium one has ##N_2/N_1=\exp[-\hbar \omega/(kT)]## and ##\dot{N}_1=\dot{N}_2=0##. From this one gets
$$(A_{21}+B_{21} I) \exp[-\hbar \omega/(kT)]=B_{12} I .$$
This gives
$$I=\frac{A_{21}}{B_{12} \exp[+\hbar \omega/(k T)]-B_{12}}.$$
On the other hand from equilibrium thermal QFT we can derive Planck's radiation Law
$$I = \frac{\hbar \omega^3}{\pi^2 c^3} \frac{1}{\exp[(\hbar \omega)/(k T)]-1}.$$
From this it follows
$$B_{12}=B_{21}, \quad \frac{A_{21}}{B_{12}}=\frac{\hbar \omega^3}{\pi^3 c^3}. \qquad (1)$$
So the spontaneous emission fraction is
$$\frac{A_{21} N_2}{B_{12} N_1 I}=\frac{\hbar \omega^3}{\pi^3 c^3}(1-\exp[-\hbar \omega/(k T)])$$
and of the induced emission
$$\frac{B_{21} I \exp[-\hbar \omega/(k T)]}{B_{12} I}=\exp[-\hbar \omega/(k T)].$$
So it's, of course, the induced emission part which coincides with Wien's radiation law.

The relations between the coefficients (1) can be directly derived from QFT too.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: dextercioby

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
4K
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
13K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
8K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K