Spontaneous "back-and-forth" chemical reactions

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of spontaneous "back-and-forth" chemical reactions, particularly focusing on examples of chemical reaction cascades that exhibit oscillatory behavior outside of living systems. Participants explore whether such phenomena exist in nature and how they relate to concepts like chemical oscillators.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that water evaporation and precipitation could be an example, questioning if it qualifies as a chemical reaction.
  • Another participant introduces the idea of chemical oscillators as a relevant concept.
  • A participant expresses surprise at the existence of chemical oscillators, indicating a lack of prior knowledge.
  • Clarification is provided that oscillators do not operate indefinitely and transition from an initial to a final state through oscillations.
  • A question is raised about the existence of non-living oscillators that are sustained by an energy source and whether such examples can be found on Earth.
  • Concerns are expressed regarding the nature of oscillators that dissipate energy, noting that they must eventually stop when energy is depleted.
  • A participant expresses curiosity about spontaneous non-living chemical events that exhibit oscillatory behavior on Earth.
  • Discussion includes a note on the relationship between concentration oscillations in chemical reactions and the requirement for total entropy to increase monotonically.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the existence of non-living oscillators or specific examples. Multiple competing views and questions remain regarding the nature and examples of oscillatory chemical reactions.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the definitions of oscillators and the conditions under which chemical reactions oscillate. The relationship between energy dissipation and the sustainability of oscillators is also not fully resolved.

icakeov
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I was wondering if there is a good example of a chemical reaction cascade that reverses itself, or does a "loop" in nature outside of life?

First thing that came to mind was water evaporating and coming back down from clouds, but that is not really a chemical reaction. Or would it be considered one?

Thanks for any feedback.
 
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I didn't know of this, despite being a chemist. Thank you Asymptotic.
 
That is totally it! Thank you!
 
Note: it is not a real oscillator, working indefinitely. It is a process that goes from some initial state to some final state, it just doesn't go there straight, but through oscillations.
 
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Thanks for pointing that out Borek.

Would there be an example of this kind of non-living oscillator that is fed by an energy source, and just keeps going? And whether this exists and can be found somewhere on Earth at all?

Also, would it be fair to say the same thing of living organisms as they all have some form of an expiry date and are in essence are a complex form of an "oscillating mechanism"?
 
icakeov said:
Would there be an example of this kind of non-living oscillator that is fed by an energy source, and just keeps going?

Every oscillator that dissipates energy must stop when the available energy is all used out.

Radio transmitter converting electric energy into radio waves. Clock that uses spring energy.
 
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I’m curious about the existence of any spontaneous non-living chemical events that do this on Earth.
 
Last edited:
It has to be noted that, even though the concentration of one chemical species can oscillate in some chemical reactions, the total entropy has to be monotonously increasing. This requires that the concentration of some of the chemical species participating in the reaction has to be monotonously increasing/decreasing.
 
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"Monotonically". Unless, of course, you find chemistry boring...
 
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  • #12
mjc123 said:
"Monotonically". Unless, of course, you find chemistry boring...

Oh, sorry, confused the similar terms. :p
 

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