Statistics pertaining to thermodyanmics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between thermodynamics and complexity within closed systems, particularly whether a closed system can increase in complexity without external energy input. Participants explore the implications of thermodynamic laws, specifically entropy, and how they relate to the concept of complexity.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that thermodynamics implies a closed system cannot increase in complexity without external input, questioning if complexity could arise by chance.
  • Another participant challenges this assertion, suggesting it may stem from a misunderstanding of the law of entropy.
  • A third participant emphasizes the need to specify the entropy measure and its distribution to clarify the discussion on complexity and entropy.
  • A later reply acknowledges a misunderstanding and reiterates that the entropy of an isolated system never decreases, aligning with the concept of systems evolving towards thermodynamic equilibrium.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the initial claim about complexity in closed systems, with some questioning the interpretation of thermodynamic principles and others seeking clarification on entropy measures. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views.

Contextual Notes

The term "complexity" is noted as ill-defined, and the discussion highlights the need for specific definitions and measures of entropy to advance the analysis.

acesuv
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Thermodynamics states that a system cannot become more complex without some sort of input (which would make it an open system). In other words, a closed system cannot increase in complexity.

I understand that complexity is a very ill-defined term. However, at least in principal, couldn't a closed system by chance become more complex without external energy? (ie: a tornado goes through a junkyard and actually goes leave a functioning aircraft in its wake)

This being said, would it be more fair to say that on average, a closed system will not increase in complexity?
 
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Thermodynamics states that a system cannot become more complex without some sort of input
Not to my knowledge ... where did you get this idea from?

Perhaps you are thinking of the law of entropy?
 
Following from what Simon Bridge said, you will need to specify the entropy measure and its corresponding distribution to specifically outline what kind of entropy (and thus information) measure you are looking at.

You also might want to look at Kolmogorov Complexity if you want to make your analysis more specific.
 
Simon Bridge said:
Not to my knowledge ... where did you get this idea from?

Perhaps you are thinking of the law of entropy?

Sorry, I guess I am! "The entropy of an isolated system never decreases, because isolated systems spontaneously evolve towards thermodynamic equilibrium, which is the state of maximum entropy."
 

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