Students' Complaint Gets Prof Fired

[gleem]

A study determined that of premed students entering university less than 17% graduated to apply to med school. According to other data from the web, of those who graduated and applied, around 50,000 to about 150 med schools each year, about 40% were accepted. The average acceptance rate is about 7 - 10% depending on the year. Kaiser-Permanente had the lowest acceptance rate of 1.1%. So there are some schools that have relatively high acceptance rates. Premed students apply to an average of 18 schools.
The number of Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine currently comprises 25% of med school grads. These are grouped with MD in any stat relating to physicians.

Another thing to consider. People don't like jumping through hoops. Is O-Chem a necessity or a weed killer... What percentage of practicing medical doctors use the full exploration of Organic Chemistry daily to perform their job?

Do some get cut that might have been outstanding physicians probably. Are some let it who shouldn't again probably. Whether it is a course, the way they dress, answer a question, history of community service, or whatever there will be a less-than-perfect method of selecting future physicians. There will always be hoops.

If Dr. Jones was a professor in his prime, IMO it would have been a greater injustice to remove him denying a greater number of students the benefit of his teaching.

 

[vela]

What percentage of practicing medical doctors use the full exploration of Organic Chemistry daily to perform their job?

You can ask the same question about almost every class and make an argument that pre-med students shouldn't have to take it because doctors will never need it for their day-to-day work. Do they really need general chemistry? What about calculus? Or statistics?

 

[erobz]

You can ask the same objection about almost every class and make an argument that pre-med students shouldn't have to take it because doctors will never need it for their day-to-day work. Do they really need general chemistry? What about calculus? Or statistics?

I was only playing devil's advocate. I don't think he should have been removed for being tough, but I do think he should have removed himself long before 84 years of age.

What I'm asking is O-Chem for a doctor like Calculus/Physics to an Engineer... I somehow doubt it. I would feel kind of displeased if my evaluation to enter into engineering was based off of my performance in History or English Literature ( common hoops that engineers must jump through).

 

[gleem]

I don't think he should have been removed for being tough, but I do think he should have removed himself long before 84 years of age.

OK, I would love to hear your rationale for this statement.

 

[erobz]

It’s just my opinion. The average life expectancy of males in the US is 74. What age do professors usually retire? Work till you die if you want, but don’t tell me being that age doesn’t slow you down. I’ve had professors in the 70s, they were less than energetic... and that is a problem.

 

[gleem]

The average life expectancy of males in the US is 74.

What does this have to do with an individual?

What age do professors usually retire?

Any time they wish. It is against fed law to mandate a retirement age for them.

Work till you die if you want, but don’t tell me being that age doesn’t slow you down. I’ve had professors in the 70s, they were less than energetic, and that is a problem.

Yes, why not if they are physically and mentally able.

So why is being less than energetic a problem? Perhaps they must sing and dance for their students too?

 

[erobz]

Yes, why not if they are physically and mentally able.

So why is being less than energetic a problem? Perhaps they must sing and dance for their students too?

I personally experienced the opposite of this NYU professor. The professor of my Power and Machinery Course was well past his time. Was he nice...yeah. Was he energetic...no. Was he able...sure. He sat there and read slides directly from the book the entire class for a semester. Never once worked a problem the entire semester. The tests were absolutely trivial (no problems-he literally would answer the test questions if you asked during the exam - it was the Twilight Zone), easiest $A$ I ever had, and no one learned a darn thing...that is a fact. This was a class we were taking (most of us) in our final year as ME's. It was an important class, and it was a complete waste of time.

Is that fair to paying students? Do you honestly think that most student truly care that they were just being handed a grade? I got news for you, they don't...so that tired old professor just keeps on robbing people of the chance to learn, because they won't just call it quits.

What I think had happened (in parallel to his age) is the university had pressured him to go easier on us over the years. By the time I had got there he just had completely given up.

 

[Office_Shredder]

.So why is being less than energetic a problem? Perhaps they must sing and dance for their students too?

. If that's what the school demands, maybe? This is the generation of tik tok. The requirements for teaching have changed, as sad as that may make you and I feel.

 

[gleem]

If that's what the school demands, maybe? This is the generation of tik tok. The requirements for teaching have changed, as sad as that may make you and I feel.

Yeah, that's what I am afraid is happening. But I hope the good schools will not. Remember, the "Safe zones" students wanted when they were too stressed to deal with controversial issues. While some relented and did so others said "no way" we promote free discussions of such issues.

What I think . . .

What I think is that one case proves nothing and should not be the basis of your prognostication on the effect or correlation of age on the in-class performance of another teacher even if cognitive decline is correlated with age.

This was a class we were taking (most of us) in our final year as ME's. It was an important class, and it was a complete waste of time

In my experience, easy or hard classes for that matter classes are known by students well in advance. Did student complain though.

 

[erobz]

In my experience, easy or hard classes for that matter classes are known by students well in advance. Did student complain though.

Power and Machinery was not supposed to be easy, and it was not an elective for ME's. Of course they didn't complain, why would they? Everyone who simply showed up got A's and B's without doing a stitch of work. The phrase "Never look a gift horse in the mouth" comes to mind.

Imagine if we went to the administration complaining that we all got A's, and didn't have to do any work!

 

[hutchphd]

Imagine if we went to the administration complaining that we all got A's, and didn't have to do any work!

Imagine.
I Imagine the dean would have listened to you. Or the departmant chair. Or your advisor. Better to shut up than consider the larger picture?

 

[erobz]

Imagine.
I Imagine the dean would have listened to you. Or the departmant chair. Or your advisor. Better to shut up than consider the larger picture?

As a student, even an adult one you don't have much free time to consider the bigger picture with 18 credits to contend with. Did I think it was wrong at the time, sure. But was I going to "be the bad guy" make more work for myself and everyone else...no, we were all stressed as it was. Everyone at that point is just trying to graduate and get a job.

I don't know if it was purely his age that was the problem, or if it was just because of his age that he did not want to play the administrative games anymore (Perhaps he just lashed out by giving the university what it wanted - going easy on us - to a fault). Either way, we didn't get what we paid for in that lecture. I don't see how you can turn this around on me. I was just treading water then, another book on my head and I might have drowned myself.

 

[Slimy0233]

It's behind a passwall so I can't read it, but:

I did not interpret the students' comment "...[scores] are not an accurate reflection of the time and effort put into this class" as meaning what you thought, to-wit: "given credit for [their] time and effort".

i.e. It seems like you're closely coupling effort > score.

I think they're saying their time and effort lead to excellent results, which were not reflected in their scores.

i.e.: effort > results > score.

not sure if it's considered ok to comment after a whole year, but I would suggest you sir to install ublock origin and turn off Javascript by clicking on the extension and clicking on </> option in that extension.

I know you won't be interested in the same article even now, but yeah, I just felt like mentioning this trick for your future use

 

[Hornbein]

Another thing to consider. People don't like jumping through hoops. Is O-Chem a necessity or a weed killer... What percentage of practicing medical doctors use the full exploration of Organic Chemistry daily to perform their job?

Drugs are almost entirely about organic chemistry.

 

[lavinia]

It’s just my opinion. The average life expectancy of males in the US is 74. What age do professors usually retire? Work till you die if you want, but don’t tell me being that age doesn’t slow you down. I’ve had professors in the 70s, they were less than energetic... and that is a problem.

On the other hand, I sat in on a course elementary topology with Dennis Sullivan who was in his 70's and students and professional mathematicians alike flocked to listen to him lecture. It sounds like this Chemistry Professor was of similar caliber and probably would have inspired a genuinely interested student.

 

[lavinia]

It would be interesting to compare this professor's course with other Organic Chemistry courses in his department. On the surface it seems like he demanded less from his students than what he would have liked. So what did the other Organic Chemistry courses require? Even less? Or were the students given a pass?