I Subset definition: universal quantifier over which set?

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The discussion centers around the definition of a subset, expressed as A ⊆ B if and only if for all x, if x is in A, then x is in B. Participants debate whether the universal quantifier should quantify over a universal set containing A and B or only over A itself. The consensus leans towards the first interpretation, which implies that the definition requires checking elements outside of A, although this may seem redundant. The conversation also touches on the notation used in logic, with suggestions for clearer expressions that avoid ambiguity. Ultimately, the focus remains on understanding the formal notation and its implications for the concept of subsets.
  • #31
strauser said:
For the first, we have to consider ##x \in \emptyset \Rightarrow x \in \emptyset'## which can be difficult to swallow, given that there is no such ##x##.
Here's why you have to swallow this. Suppose we want to prove, for example, that there is no real ##x## such that ##x^2 = -1##.

We might assume such an ##x## exists, reach a contradiction and conclude that no such ##x## exists.

But, wait a minute! If no such ##x## exists, then we effectively chose ##x## initially from the empty set and applied some logic (which is what we don't accept as valid). The logical basis of our proof of the non-existence of such an ##x## by contradiction has been undermined somewhat.

That's why, even if ##x## does not exist, we must be able to proceed logically from the assumed properties of ##x##. And, thereby, swallow the concept of vacuous logic.
 
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  • #32
In the language of set theory, ##\forall x \Phi(x)## is the primitive operation. Roughly speaking, it means for any set x, ##\Phi(x)## holds. Restricted quantification is a defined concept: ##\forall x \in A ~ \Phi(x)## is considered shorthand for ##\forall x (x \in A \Rightarrow \Phi(x))##.

So there is no implied universal set that is being quantified over.

The issue about ##x \in \emptyset \Rightarrow x \in \emptyset'## is not specific to set theory. It's just the usual interpretation of ##\Rightarrow##:
$$(\text{True} \Rightarrow \text{True}) ~ \text{is True}$$
$$(\text{False} \Rightarrow \text{True}) ~ \text{is True}$$
$$(\text{False} \Rightarrow \text{False}) ~ \text{is True}$$
$$(\text{True} \Rightarrow \text{False}) ~ \text{is False}$$
 
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  • #33
stevendaryl said:
In the language of set theory, ##\forall x \Phi(x)## is the primitive operation. Roughly speaking, it means for any set x, ##\Phi(x)## holds. Restricted quantification is a defined concept: ##\forall x \in A ~ \Phi(x)## is considered shorthand for ##\forall x (x \in A \Rightarrow \Phi(x))##.
Regarding this, there is one related point/question that I had in mind for some time (relation to translation of "ordinary mathematical statements" to "sets only").

Very briefly it goes like this:
Suppose we want to re-convert a statement of form:
##\forall x \in \mathbb{R} \, [\, P(x) ]##
to sets only. I think we would go like:
##\forall x [ x \in \mathbb{R} \rightarrow P(x) ]##

=============================================

It seems that such translations (like above) would be good when we are dealing with "collections" which are sets. However, it seems, I think, that in general math one has to deal with "collections" which are not sets [collections too big to be sets]. So consider such a collection ##G##. We might write:
##\forall x \in G \, [ \, P(x) ]##

But since the "collection" of objects ##G## is not a set, the primitive translation can't be like the above case for ##\mathbb{R}##. Here is how I "think" we might proceed. Make a formula like ##Q(x)## [one free variable] such that ##Q(a)## is true iff the set ##a## is in collection ##G##.
Then write:
##\forall x [x \in G \rightarrow P(x) ]##
##\forall x [ Q(x) \rightarrow P(x) ]##

(The ##x \in G## above is meant to be informal)

=============================================

It feels reasonable to some extent. However, is there something else here that one needs to keep in mind? Or perhaps other typical examples or issues that occur in re-translation?
 
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  • #34
SSequence said:
Regarding this, there is one related point/question that I had in mind for some time (relation to translation of "ordinary mathematical statements" to "sets only").

Very briefly it goes like this:
Suppose we want to re-convert a statement of form:
##\forall x \in \mathbb{R} \, [\, P(x) ]##
to sets only. I think we would go like:
##\forall x [ x \in \mathbb{R} \rightarrow P(x) ]##

=============================================

It seems that such translations (like above) would be good when we are dealing with "collections" which are sets. However, it seems, I think, that in general math one has to deal with "collections" which are not sets [collections too big to be sets]. So consider such a collection ##G##. We might write:
##\forall x \in G \, [ \, P(x) ]##

But since the "collection" of objects ##G## is not a set, the primitive translation can't be like the above case for ##\mathbb{R}##. Here is how I "think" we might proceed. Make a formula like ##Q(x)## [one free variable] such that ##Q(a)## is true iff the set ##a## is in collection ##G##.
Then write:
##\forall x [x \in G \rightarrow P(x) ]##
##\forall x [ Q(x) \rightarrow P(x) ]##

(The ##x \in G## above is meant to be informal)

=============================================

It feels reasonable to some extent. However, is there something else here that one needs to keep in mind? Or perhaps other typical examples or issues that occur in re-translation?

You're absolutely right. If ##G## is a definable collection--definable via a formula in set theory--then you can use that formula to express quantification over all of ##G##. Quantification over the elements of a set is just a special case.
 
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